Lore Collection Project

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Deusite
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by Deusite » August 21st, 2009, 5:03 pm

Noted, thanks Al.
AI wrote:There's a reference to SoF at the beginning.
As for keeping it, the order of magi is analogous to today's scientific community: knowledge is valued, even if it can be used for less-than-wholesome purposes.
Hmmm, I can imagine. I would have thought that they would have some common sense.

Mage: I don't really want to blow up the planet, I just want to know *how* to!

Arch Mage: Oh, fine then. *eyes suspiciously*

It reminds me of something actually

Answers to life, the universe and everything. At the small cost of $6.4 billion and a small chance of ending humanity. Anyway...
AI wrote:About the Mal prefix, it is *not* a generical 'malicious' prefix or the like. Malin has the somewhat unique excuse of it being a shorthand for his original name.
It has also been conjectured that Ravanal knew Malin and named his cult in honor of his teacher or the like. (but this is mostly off-hand speculation)

It may at some point be a good idea to stop Malin from renaming himself.
Changing Malin's name is by far the easiest solution. Ravanal couldn't have known Keshar then unless a Lich can somehow appear to be human. Although if that was possible, they would all be at it. It could perhaps have something to do with the book. :hmm:

I'm all for a name change.

Edit: How many other Liches with a Mal prefix are there? I can remember Mal'Mbrin from TSG at least.

Edit edit: Revisions to DiD based on Al's comments and minor revisions to SoF. The magical forge could be drake-ish according to the manual. It's in general lore and dwarvish lore because it isn't completely clear where the magic comes from.
DiD.pdf
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by AI » August 21st, 2009, 9:01 pm

With knowing him, I mean running into him when Ravanal is still human and Malin is a 200 year old lich.

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melinath
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by melinath » August 22nd, 2009, 12:12 am

The forum is too limited. Here's a critique of the SoF analysis:
SoF_Critique.tar.gz
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I've tried to point out problems and suggest possible solutions. The problems need to be fixed, but not necessarily in the way that I've done it. If you have questions about what I think was wrong with a certain section, ask. :-) Keep up the good work!

In terms of the forge in S12: There is absolutely no reason to suspect that drakes are involved if you stick to what's actually stated om the campaign. You are correct that it's not clearly stated who made the forge, but seeing as it's in a dwarvish mine and there's no mention whatsoever in the entire campaign of drakes, a Dwarvish explanation is likelier. If you want to emphasize that it's uncertain, go ahead and leave it in Wesverse Lore, but then take it out of Dwarvish lore - it only needs to be in one place. Also, if you do include the forge in Wesverse lore, it would fit better in the Northlands section than in General.

EDIT::
Deusite: After some thought, it occurred to me that drakes don't use magic, so the forge can't be theirs. But it was an interesting idea and I shouldn't have been so quick to dismiss it on purely circumstantial grounds.

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Deusite
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by Deusite » August 23rd, 2009, 10:18 pm

Hmm maybe if the forge was made by drakes and the dwarves placed magic on it afterwards. It's a thought. :hmm:

I'll try to get through the critique by the end of the week, maybe even the analysis for EI as well. I wasn't expecting something so in-depth. Although I'll be fairly busy from now on with GCSE results and such. Then pretty soon afterwards I'll be back at skull school, yay :augh:
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by The1exile » August 27th, 2009, 11:35 am

Deusite wrote:Hmm maybe if the forge was made by drakes and the dwarves placed magic on it afterwards. It's a thought.
Conversely, maybe the Saurians made the forge and the dwarves magicked it up. Or maybe it was humans. Hell, it might even be elves. Apart from the fact that Drakes breathe fire and the forge is hot (OK, and maybe that it's near a dragon), why conjecture that the Drakes made it rather than any other more ubiquitous race?
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by melinath » August 27th, 2009, 2:57 pm

The1exile wrote:Apart from the fact that Drakes breathe fire and the forge is hot (OK, and maybe that it's near a dragon), why conjecture that the Drakes made it rather than any other more ubiquitous race?
Because the drakes are the only other race that's well known for being a race of greatly-skilled smiths.

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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by The1exile » August 27th, 2009, 5:29 pm

True. But all races use swords, so they must have a pretty good grounding in smithing, and as far as I can tell what makes this forge special is that it's magic, not that it's particularly well made (can forges even be particularly well made?).
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by melinath » August 27th, 2009, 6:56 pm

As far as I'm concerned, the forge is probably dwarven. Reasons:
  • It's in an old dwarven mine.
  • It's magic. Dwarves use magic.
  • It's been abandoned, but the campaign already clearly states the reason.
Strikes against dwarves: 0.

Reasons for the drakes look something like this:
  • Drakes are excellent smiths and would use excellent forges.
  • Drakes are known to have colonies in the Heart Mountains.
  • Drakes are related to dragons.
Strikes against drakes:
  • Drakes don't use magic. (Someone else could have magicked it.)
  • There are no drakes in the campaign. (This could be changed.)
  • Drakes generally don't live underground (This could be explained.)
  • Why would the drakes abandon such a place, especially when there's a dragon there? (This could also be explained)
So the drakes could be supported with a little bending of the situation.

Any other race runs up against even more objections than the drakes do, and/or there are fewer things to suggest they would create such a forge. For example, Elves:
  • Elves use magic.
Against elves:
  • Elves aren't particularly good smiths and wouldn't need such a forge.
  • Elves don't generally go underground.
  • By ancient treaty, the mountains belong to the dwarves.

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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by thespaceinvader » August 27th, 2009, 7:02 pm

Occam's razor suggests the forge is of dwarven make, or of unknown origins (entirely acceptable, of course, when recording what lore is already present). If the lore doesn't say something, say so, don't try to fill in the gaps. That's not the purpose of this project.
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by melinath » August 27th, 2009, 8:29 pm

thespaceinvader wrote:If the lore doesn't say something, say so, don't try to fill in the gaps. That's not the purpose of this project.
QFMT. This discussion is not going to decide whether drakes or dwarves built that forge. It is not known. Period. However, Deusite may choose to include whatever speculation he wishes in his analysis, as long as he continues to make clear that it's speculation. And in the case of the forge, it might make sense to mention the simplest explanation next to the explanation that requires a stretch.

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Deusite
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by Deusite » August 29th, 2009, 5:09 am

Update for SoF. It should be nearly done, melinath left no stone (or forge) unturned.

As for the forge, I'm saying it's probably dwarvish. Drake's have almost no lore to extract in the first place so they should mostly be left aside for other projects, like those unit desc rewrites :wink:
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by Kenpachi » August 30th, 2009, 8:55 am

How large is the forge?
If it's movable, then the dwarfs may have found/acquired it and moved it.

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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by solsword » September 11th, 2009, 6:57 pm

Forges are in general not mobile, as they include an anvil, a bellows, and a (usually large) fire pit or oven with an attached chimney, at the very least. Although mobile forges do exist, I think, they're something that a tinker would use, and nothing up to the task of forging awesome magical artifacts.

Also, pay attention to the purpose of this thread. The purpose is not to speculate on Wesnothian lore (that thread will come later), but simply to gather it, *as it exists*. This point apparently cannot be stressed enough. Of course, if you're willing to do some of the analysis work, you get a free pass to add your *clearly marked* and *well-grounded* speculations to the analysis document (although you need to make sure that such speculations don't come to dominate the document).

Disclaimer: The above positions are inferred from reading the rest of this thread, and may not in fact accurately represent the thread's purpose and limitations. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please.
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by melinath » September 15th, 2009, 12:55 am

solsword wrote:Also, pay attention to the purpose of this thread. The purpose is not to speculate on Wesnothian lore (that thread will come later), but simply to gather it, *as it exists*. This point apparently cannot be stressed enough. Of course, if you're willing to do some of the analysis work, you get a free pass to add your *clearly marked* and *well-grounded* speculations to the analysis document (although you need to make sure that such speculations don't come to dominate the document).

Disclaimer: The above positions are inferred from reading the rest of this thread, and may not in fact accurately represent the thread's purpose and limitations. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please.
QFT. Your inferences are entirely correct and well stated.

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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by StDrake » September 15th, 2009, 5:34 am

well the whole lore about the forge "as it exists" is that:
a) it sits in an abandonned dwarven mine in a volcano inhabited by a dragon
b)it is heated by lava
c)it *looks* like a forge, is not necessarily a professional one
d) it *looks* magic..as above
d)the dragon claims ownership of the "pretty metal stone" that is used as an anvil by Thursagan

putting it all together it would seem that the forgeplace is a natural formation, perhaps aside for the anvilstone. There is completely no trace on the origin of the magic, if it indeed is magical, but dwarves work their magic with runes which would be clearly visible, not just "it looks magic". Speculations on the magical part should include the option of a natural echantment. It is not uncommon for things (or at least creatures) in Wesnoth to be imbued with some magical potential without outside influence.
That leaves the question of the anvilstone which lacks precise lore, it may have either been dragged there by the dragon from somewhere else as his sole property or just looted off the former inhabitants of the mines as-is.

eh..no if you want to solve this it won't do good without making some things up :) the original maker of this campaign would be most entitled to that
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