Lore Collection Project

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Turuk
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by Turuk » August 4th, 2009, 3:16 pm

melinath wrote:Turuk: Since there are so few campaign-specific units, I think the information they hold is more likely relevant to the specific campaign than it is to other campaign-specific units. Of course it'll all come together in the end anyway, but analysis of a particular time period is easier if all the information is in one place.
I wasn't saying that they had to be compared against each other. I meant, as I wrote, that they could be put on one wiki page for easy reference, for whatever purpose. Trying to cram it all on to the wiki page for a campaign is fine too I suppose.
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by thespaceinvader » August 4th, 2009, 3:20 pm

It strikes me that campaign-specific unit descriptions ought to be included in the lore collection for their campaigns... that's where they're relevant, after all...
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by Skrim » August 4th, 2009, 3:23 pm

Skrim: Your choice. The extraction is meant to make later analysis and comparison easier, since you don't have to flip between pages constantly, so I'd do it if it were me, but it's not as necessary for unit descriptions as for campaigns.
Ah yes, but then I don't have to use the Wiki. A simple Notepad should do.

I'd also consider the earliest canonical appearance and later appearances as part of unit lore.

For example, lance-wielding Horsemen & Knights were the traditional Islefolk concept of mounted forces, while sword-&-shield Cavalry was unknown of in any of the Islefolk kingdoms. Cavalry made it's first appearance at the Battle of Tath in LoW, IIRC, and later gained popularity in the eastern provinces of Wesnoth while the Clans of the Horse Plains kept the old spear-charging tradition alive. Horsemen are present in AToTB, Cavalry is not. Cavalry is present in TSG, Horsmen are not. Sir Kaylan and the Clansmen use Horsemen in HttT, Asheviere and Li'sar use Cavalry. Cavalry is available from the start of EI, but Horsemen become available only once you meet Owaec at the Northern Outpost.

Stuff like that.

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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by Turuk » August 4th, 2009, 3:25 pm

thespaceinvader wrote:It strikes me that campaign-specific unit descriptions ought to be included in the lore collection for their campaigns... that's where they're relevant, after all...
Sure, I just went off of melinath's page and figured he had a reason for leaving them out of his, particularly when he added extracting descriptions to the list of things to do.
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by melinath » August 4th, 2009, 3:56 pm

Er... I didn't leave them off any of my campaign pages.

Skrim: The wiki is particularly useful if one person is extracting and another analyzing. I also like the links it provides, but that's again more useful the more information there is. If you prefer Notepad, go for it! If you want to provide a history of when a unit is used, more power to you. It'll be a lot more difficult, but it'll be great to know.

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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by Turuk » August 4th, 2009, 4:00 pm

melinath wrote:Er... I didn't leave them off any of my campaign pages.
Ah, there they are, tucked away above all the names.
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by Skrim » August 4th, 2009, 7:01 pm

melinath wrote:Skrim: The wiki is particularly useful if one person is extracting and another analyzing. I also like the links it provides, but that's again more useful the more information there is. If you prefer Notepad, go for it! If you want to provide a history of when a unit is used, more power to you. It'll be a lot more difficult, but it'll be great to know.
Well, I'm doing the extraction and the analysis, so I'll use a simple Notepad.

I am including "Combat History" sections giving an overall background of the units' implied and observed roles within their race/factions' military, taken from the campaigns in which they appear with a major role(as a playable unit or oft-recurring enemy for now).

I've started on the analysis of the Dwarves already, with the Fighter and Thunderer lines analyzed. It's surprising how deeply the Thunderstick technology is shrouded in mystery(and how staunchly close-mouthed the Dwarves remain about it). This is going to be fun... :D

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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by melinath » August 4th, 2009, 8:59 pm

Skrim wrote:I've started on the analysis of the Dwarves already, with the Fighter and Thunderer lines analyzed. It's surprising how deeply the Thunderstick technology is shrouded in mystery(and how staunchly close-mouthed the Dwarves remain about it). This is going to be fun... :D
Skrim: It's possible that the answer to thunderstick technology is not stated in dwarf descriptions. Don't look in campaigns for answers (that'll be done in campaign analysis) and be careful not to read too much into any given statement.

An analysis of unit use in campaigns might be interesting, but now that I think about it, how do you plan on doing it? You would have to check every scenario of every campaign and see what units can be recruited by a given faction in that campaign. Again, this might be a more appropriate task for the campaign extractors; they could easily add a list of recruitable units at the beginning of each scenario and provide an overall campaign summary, which you could perhaps analyze at a later date.

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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by thespaceinvader » August 4th, 2009, 9:52 pm

The way in which the thundersticks works is unclear on purpose. There were numerous long discussions/flame wars abotu whether it was gunpowder, magic or some combination of the two. Suffice it to say, the Dwarves know how they work, and they ain't telling. Externally, the ones I designed for the portraits work in a very similar manner to primitive cannons - you stick a paper-wrapped twist of...something... down the barrel, light the fuse with a slow-match, and point in the right direction. Beyond that, keeping things vague is good...
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by Skrim » August 5th, 2009, 3:06 am

melinath wrote:Skrim: It's possible that the answer to thunderstick technology is not stated in dwarf descriptions. Don't look in campaigns for answers (that'll be done in campaign analysis) and be careful not to read too much into any given statement.
Most of the info comes from the descriptions. So far, the only thing I'm getting from the campaigns is stuff like how common the unit is. Like how Fighters and Thunderers are apparently the most common Dwarf units, how Dragonguards seem to be very rare, how Lords are primarily found as leaders of Dwarvish clans.

The only race for which 'Combat History' is problematic is the Orcs, because they appear everywhere. But I'm not doing the Orcs, so it's not my problem.

I'm not trying to find the "answer" behind Thunderstick technology, though I am listing all the various myths and speculations that are mentioned in the descs.

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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by melinath » August 5th, 2009, 4:23 am

Skrim: Just checking. Look forward to reading your analysis! :-)

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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by Turuk » August 5th, 2009, 4:42 am

thespaceinvader wrote:primitive cannons - you stick a paper-wrapped twist of...something... down the barrel, light the fuse with a slow-match, and point in the right direction. Beyond that, keeping things vague is good...
Sugar? Pixie dust? Happy thoughts? ;)
Skrim wrote:Most of the info comes from the descriptions. So far, the only thing I'm getting from the campaigns is stuff like how common the unit is. Like how Fighters and Thunderers are apparently the most common Dwarf units, how Dragonguards seem to be very rare, how Lords are primarily found as leaders of Dwarvish clans.
Looking forward to reading this as well.
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by thespaceinvader » August 5th, 2009, 6:35 am

Turuk wrote:
thespaceinvader wrote:primitive cannons - you stick a paper-wrapped twist of...something... down the barrel, light the fuse with a slow-match, and point in the right direction. Beyond that, keeping things vague is good...
Sugar? Pixie dust? Happy thoughts? ;)
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by Skrim » August 5th, 2009, 4:26 pm

Well, here's the first WIP draft of the Dwarf unit analysis.

The Scout line has no Combat History because it hasn't been fully implemented yet, only present in THoT as a player unit AFAIK.

The Runemaster isn't in this yet because there are 2 very different "Runemaster" units: the one used in SoF, and the mainline one which isn't used anywhere AFAIK. I'm not sure which one to use. The SoF version uses a magical hammer and has no ranged attack. The so-called mainline version has a normal hammer and ranged lightning bolts.

I'm going to add the Gryphon Rider line to this too, since those are also Dwarves, just mounted ones.

Edit: Note that 'strength' is just a term I use for any apparently positive characteristic, and 'weakness' for any apparently negative characteristic.
Although I haven't cited the sources in this version, the Combat History comes from SoF and THoT mainly, with HttT, NR and LoW also contributing the rarity/commonness lines(since they all feature playable Dwarves).
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Dwarvish Unit Analysis.pdf
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Re: Lore Collection Project

Post by melinath » August 5th, 2009, 4:33 pm

Skrim wrote:The Runemaster isn't in this yet because there are 2 very different "Runemaster" units: the one used in SoF, and the mainline one which isn't used anywhere AFAIK. I'm not sure which one to use. The SoF version uses a magical hammer and has no ranged attack. The so-called mainline version has a normal hammer and ranged lightning bolts.
Use the mainline version. SoF will analyze the SoF version. When the lore is collected into a single document, the contradiction will be noted.

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