Bat descriptions

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melinath
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by melinath » August 5th, 2009, 12:05 am

jhanlon wrote:
Turuk wrote:Sure, but you can't say they are too weak to be effectual fighters and then claim they have effective fighting capabilities.
It doesn't say that they are too weak, it says that some consider them to be too weak, and then goes on to explain why they aren't.
... which wouldn't be a problem, except then you turn around and explain why they are too weak.
melinath wrote:Here's an outline of the thought progression:
1. Bats are considered too weak to be fighters.
2. But they're actually really awesome. They have lots of great abilities and make "dangerous adversaries".
3. But they're actually just really weak.
4. So you can't really use them as fighters.

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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by Turuk » August 5th, 2009, 4:52 am

We are trying to help you with your description in an effort to get it to mainline quality. I know the description may not read that way to you, but we would not be belaboring this point if we did not feel that the description currently offers contradictory views and we felt it was important that it be changed.
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jhanlon
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by jhanlon » August 11th, 2009, 9:31 pm

Thanks, I really do appreciate it. I'm in a big hurry right now, but I'll work on it tonight and try to fix the contradiction problem.

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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by jhanlon » August 25th, 2009, 7:06 pm

Sorry I took so long, but my computer has been having problems. Finally, however, I can put a post in. Here's the promised fixup.

" Because of their disadvantages in size and strength, vampire bats are more often used by their masters as scouts, rather than regular fighters. However, if they do enter combat, are preserved by their ability to drain health from their enemies. If a bat's fangs can get a grip in it's adversary's flesh, it will suck the other's vitals which will be used to heal it's wounds. The bat is in danger if the enemy is able to strike back, however, for to a creature of the vampire's size, even a light blow can cause damage.

(I need a better word for "suck.")

I took the "small and weak" approach, probably better for a level 0 unit. I can see it needs a lot of fixing, but the basic idea is there. :)

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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by thespaceinvader » August 25th, 2009, 7:26 pm

You're describing stats again.

I would suggest goign a more fluffy route.
Legends from across the Great Continent speak of a dark form of undead, known for sinister powers of seduction and enthralment, and for drinking the blood of their victims to maintain their unlife - vampires. Vampire bats share few similarities with their namesake, aside from the drinking of blood. They are living creatures, and often appear in the armies of necromancers and liches, serving as scouts and harassing weaker foes.
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by jhanlon » August 25th, 2009, 7:43 pm

That sounds good, except that if they are living creatures, then they must maintain their life, not unlife.

I do get your point about fluffy language though. I want figure out a way to describe the drain ability somewhat more fully.

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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by thespaceinvader » August 25th, 2009, 7:46 pm

You are conflating the part about the legends about vampires with the part about the bats themselves. Don't do that.

However, it could be clarified by adding 'to stay alive' to the end of that second sentence.
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Neoskel
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by Neoskel » August 25th, 2009, 11:03 pm

I'm not sure if the legends of vampires should originate from the Great Continent, maybe instead the humans brought them (both the legends and at least one vampire) over from the Green Isle and maybe then from the Wesfolk who would probably have more experience with different types of undead. Undead do appear to originate from wherever the Wesfolk came from.

Something like: "When men first settled in the Great Continent, they brought with them legends of a dark form of undead..."

Just a thought, since any form of undead is usually tied back to humans in some form.

Edit: Crap, the vampire lady is in Rise of Wesnoth already ensconced on that island. Nevermind.

Vampires might be a type of elf specific undead then, this isn't the place to extrapolate about that though.
Last edited by Neoskel on August 25th, 2009, 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by thespaceinvader » August 25th, 2009, 11:07 pm

I don't really mind too much about specifics - but explaining the name is probably more important than explaining the usage of the unit. That's what strategy guides are for. Unit descriptions are for fluff. In this case, the most important thing, to my mind, is explaining why they're called Vampire Bats, when vampires are neither a common feature of the game, nor often mentioned in the lore. They appear all of once that i can recall, in the form of units, or mentions in game text.
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by melinath » August 26th, 2009, 4:50 am

I agree with TSI: more fluff! However, fluff is not just a matter of content. It's also a matter of style. What you have with this new version is a very dry list. A strategy guide describing how to use the unit and what its strengths and weaknesses are. Here's the last version you posted:
jhanlon's last version wrote:In human lore, vampire bats are often associated with fear and darkness. Living in caves and holes, hiding from the sun's light, bats are often considered too weak to be effectual fighters. However, when in combat, their great agility and sharp fangs make them dangerous adversaries. They target the most prominent veins on their enemies, attempting to suck a mouthful of blood, though this may cost them a blow in return. This extra nourishment is used to heal and invigorate the bats, their wounds being cured by the enemy's blood. Despite their effective fighting capabilities, they cannot match the size and strength of most units, and so are more often deployed as scouts.
Here's a few things you left out in the new version:
-mention of superstition
-bat habitat
-bat living habits
-bat's sense of purpose (in the old description, the bats *target* the veins and *attempt* to suck blood)

This is why I would say that the last version is better.

However, that's not to say that you should give up the new version. As a whole, the framework you've developed may end up being better for you. Just try to bring in some more completely unnecessary details and phrasings that nonetheless sound nice. Fluff.

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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by Araja » August 26th, 2009, 1:26 pm

thespaceinvader wrote:the most important thing, to my mind, is explaining why they're called Vampire Bats, when vampires are neither a common feature of the game, nor often mentioned in the lore.
Because Vampire Bats are a species of bloodsucking bat, and thus are a good name for a species of bloodsucking bat?
I know you have a thing about real life and Wesnoth meeting in any way, but the real world does provide good ideas, sometimes.

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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by thespaceinvader » August 26th, 2009, 2:48 pm

Vampire bat is only a good name for a bloodsucking bat because of the legends that WE have of vampires. Apart from a single instance of a corrupted elf turning into a vampire in tRoW, there is NO other mention of vampires at all throughout the whole game so far. Establishing that such legends also exist in Wesnoth is necessary to explain the name. Otherwise it is just a meaningless word.

Blood bat currently makes sense in world. So does dread bat. Vampire bat only makes sense because there are vampire bats and legends about vampires in the real world.
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by jhanlon » August 27th, 2009, 4:38 pm

I know that the annoying thing about the old descriptions for me was that they had no explanation of the drain ability, which is, after all, the really distinctive thing about the bats.

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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by thespaceinvader » August 27th, 2009, 4:50 pm

Vampire bats are flying beasts that feed on the blood of other creatures. While their fangs are not very powerful, the health of victims is drained away along with their blood, and given to the Bats.

Special Notes: During battle, this unit can drain life from victims to renew its own health.
Seems explained to me. Heck, it seems like it's explained TWICE to me...
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by melinath » August 27th, 2009, 4:58 pm

thespaceinvader wrote:Vampire bat is only a good name for a bloodsucking bat because of the legends that WE have of vampires. Apart from a single instance of a corrupted elf turning into a vampire in tRoW, there is NO other mention of vampires at all throughout the whole game so far. Establishing that such legends also exist in Wesnoth is necessary to explain the name. Otherwise it is just a meaningless word.
True, the name 'Vampire Bat' doesn't make sense without vampire legends. But to put it another way, the name implies the existence of vampire legends in Wesnoth. It would be nice to expand on them a bit more; otherwise, it's a very isolated lore source.

jhanlon: Again, fluff isn't just what you say, it's how you say it. Sure, it'd be great to get some sort of feel that there are legends about bats, but that doesn't mean you can't mention the drain ability. In fact, I don't think anybody's been saying that you *shouldn't* explain the drain ability, just that the explanation should read like a unit description and not like a strategy guide.

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