Bat descriptions

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Aethaeryn
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by Aethaeryn » August 3rd, 2009, 2:29 pm

Turuk wrote:
thespaceinvader wrote:A question springs to mind: given the lack of vampires in Wesnoth, can we justify calling them Vampire Bats. Wouldn't a rename to just 'Bat' make more sense?
A good point, though there is an animal called a vampire bat and there are no vampires in our world either. ;)
I thought there was a Vampire in TRoW?

EDIT: Looked it up in the cfg file. Scenario 17d: Cursed Isle.
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jhanlon
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by jhanlon » August 3rd, 2009, 2:35 pm

I was sort of posing their size and weakness, vs. their agility. They are are agile enough to be good fighters, despite what many people think, but are still not as strong and large as most other units, and are therefore used as scouts.

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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by thespaceinvader » August 3rd, 2009, 2:35 pm

One single one, in the whole of history?

Vampires may not be real, but they are legends throughout our history. I guess they could be legends in 'noth history as well, but when there are perfectly real undead things, it seems to me that they'd be named somethign else...
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by Turuk » August 3rd, 2009, 2:41 pm

jhanlon wrote:I was sort of posing their size and weakness, vs. their agility. They are are agile enough to be good fighters, despite what many people think, but are still not as strong and large as most other units, and are therefore used as scouts.
Sure, but you can't say they are too weak to be effectual fighters and then claim they have effective fighting capabilities.
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by Aethaeryn » August 3rd, 2009, 3:01 pm

thespaceinvader wrote:One single one, in the whole of history?
I doubt the mainline campaigns consist of the whole history of its world. There are many unanswered questions: What happened before TROW (especially on the old, western continent)? What happened between the latest campaign chronologically (SotBE?) and UtBS? etc. There are massive gaps in history, and only a corner of one continent makes up the vast majority of the setting. I think if we've seen one vampire, we can bet that there could hypothetically be more, or at least rumors and legends based off of this legendary encounter and distorted over the years.
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The1exile
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by The1exile » August 3rd, 2009, 3:58 pm

Isn't Count Kromire from UMC a vampire?
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by thespaceinvader » August 3rd, 2009, 3:59 pm

There's a vampires faction in one of the UMEs, which has at least one campaign attached to it. but I'm reasonably sure that the setting of tat UME is not Wesnoth.
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by melinath » August 3rd, 2009, 4:26 pm

There is indeed a vampire in TRoW, and it really bothers me because it's completely unexplained and unnecessary. The only thing that makes her a vampire is that the unit name is "Vampire Lady". Otherwise, she could (and should, IMHO) just be an undead that happens to drain life. Not that I have anything against vampires, but she is completely and utterly an isolated case.

To be fair, though, this is the only mainline record of possibly elvish undead. Maybe elves often turn into vampires when they un-die. [acronym="There are holes in Wesnoth's history the size of Europe"]TAHIWHTSOE[/acronym]. However, this thread is about the bat desc.

I would like to second Turuk's point about contradictory statements. He missed one, though: "they cannot match the size and strength of most units", which directly contradicts the idea that a vampire bat is an effective fighter. They're either one or the other...
Here's an outline of the thought progression:
1. Bats are considered too weak to be fighters.
2. But they're actually really awesome. They have lots of great abilities and make "dangerous adversaries".
3. But they're actually just really weak.
4. So you can't really use them as fighters.

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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by ancestral » August 3rd, 2009, 5:16 pm

Vampire bats are a particular type of bat. Their food source is blood. This is different than regular bats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_bat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat

There is a significant difference. I strongly believe you should not change this.
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by thespaceinvader » August 3rd, 2009, 5:25 pm

There is. On Earth. We have seen no evidence that blood-drinking bats are not the most common sort, or even the only sort, of bats in Wesnoth.
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by melinath » August 3rd, 2009, 6:01 pm

We have also seen no evidence that there are cows, cats, or hummingbirds on Wesnoth. That doesn't mean they don't exist...
I wouldn't necessarily object to a name change, but just "Bat" seems too ordinary.

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Turuk
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by Turuk » August 3rd, 2009, 8:04 pm

melinath wrote:I would like to second Turuk's point about contradictory statements. He missed one, though: "they cannot match the size and strength of most units", which directly contradicts the idea that a vampire bat is an effective fighter. They're either one or the other...
I thought about noting that one, but I left it out because if the others are fixed then that one can still remain a viable statement.
ancestral wrote:Vampire bats are a particular type of bat. Their food source is blood. This is different than regular bats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_bat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat

There is a significant difference. I strongly believe you should not change this.
I noted this previously, and as I stated, it is called a vampire bat because it sucks blood. Vampires are not real in our world but we have stories about them and so named a bat after such. Even if there are no vampires in Wesnoth, why would they not be capable of coming up with similar stories? They do fight undead and necromancers, so I don't think that it is too much of a stretch for them to be believe in a blood-sucking humanoid, even if they do not exist there either.

Even if the bat may not be the only type of bat in Wesnoth (of course not), it would make sense that in a combat setting you are going to want bats that drink blood over fruit bats or anything else.
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by The1exile » August 3rd, 2009, 10:47 pm

Since bats IRL tend to have very specialised diets (some eat bats, some eat fish, some eat birds, all of which could be cast in wesnoth against bats/mermen/gryphons/whatever), yet clearly the bats have some rather unbatlike if vampiric characteristics (drain) and are happy to bunch on a bag of bones if their leader necromancer tells them to, maybe it would be best to renvision the bat entirely. Instead of insisting that it is actually a bat, call it a minor demon that can be summoned by an adept necromancer which, due to its resemblance to the other harmless bats of wesnoth, is often mistaken for one.

P.S. I wonder if you could use fruit bats to harass woses. :P
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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by Araja » August 4th, 2009, 6:50 pm

Because bats can also be wildlife?

Maybe they "bunch" on mindless bags of bones because that's what the master tells it to do?
I'm pretty sure running after, biting, and returning a thrown stick to the creature that threw it isn't natural behaviour for a dog, but that doesn't mean the dog is some kind of minor demon.

I'd say they are hypnotised somehow, simply because it allows for the all-powerful AWDI excuse, and still allows them to be random wildlife.

PS: I don't know, I can't tell from the art whether they're fruit trees or not :P

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Re: Bat descriptions

Post by jhanlon » August 4th, 2009, 9:56 pm

Turuk wrote:Sure, but you can't say they are too weak to be effectual fighters and then claim they have effective fighting capabilities.
It doesn't say that they are too weak, it says that some consider them to be too weak, and then goes on to explain why they aren't.

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