Petition Against Dwarves As Scots (PADAS) + dwarf issues

[melinath]

Why should dwarves be Scottish? Admittedly, in another thread in this forum, I espoused the idea, supporting it with various statements from around the forums; and admittedly, it's better to have them Scottish than to have no identity at all, but if they're going to be Scottish (a 'fact' which I don't believe is lore or canon, just a result of general dwarf stereotypes developed over the last 60-odd years) then we should decide as writers to do it consistently. However, it might be more interesting if we try to make them sound Norse/Vikingish. And more accurate, in a certain sense of the word. The task of researching how best to do this would, of course, fall to the person who is most interested in it ATM or the first person to try and take on the dwarves. Though I suppose there could be someone lurking around who already has expertise in this area...? We shall see.

More generally, this thread is meant for discussing dwarf culture. Have fun!

[thespaceinvader]

Because it's a recognisable accent that lots of people now associate with dwarves, for one notable reason... I don't have any objection to dwarves having any accent people want them to have, but it's worth bearing in mind that different regions of Wesnoth would probably have different accents anyway - the ones we meet in NR and tHoT are northerners I can't remember if the SoF dwarves had a noticeable accent tbh...

[melinath]

As regards the racial stereotyping of language: I don't primarily see this as a question of race. I'll take dwarves as an example. Obviously dwarves aren't biologically predisposed to speak Scottishly. However, again, language is an arbitrary social construct - i.e. it's created in dialogue between people. In other words, people who live near each other tend to speak the same. So a dwarf living in Weldyn would have a Weldyn accent and Weldyn slang, and an dwarf living among the Orcs (for whatever reason) would tend to talk a bit like an orc. However, most of the dwarves live together in the northern mountains, and these dwarves would have a way of speaking that is common to their community. In defining "how a dwarf talks", I only mean defining the general characteristics of the speech of the large dwarvish community. An individual dwarf would of course speak differently depending on his or her experiences in life.

I still stand by this statement, but you're right that I was being unclear.

[Turuk]

Is there any particular reason you picked Norse?

[melinath]

In earth literature, dwarves are most represented in Norse. But since language is arbitrary (see above) it doesn't really matter. We could even use scottish. As long as we're aware that we're falling into a stereotype.

Actually, I'm interested to see how this turns out in relation to Wesnothian... ye olde "everything we write is just a translation of what they're REALLY saying..."

[Turuk]

What earth literature?

Either way, it's basically picking one method of how they talk in one type of literature over another.

[Simons Mith]

Can we start by establishing a firm Scots culture for dwarves, on the understanding that that's not going to be th end of the matter? Once one culture is defined, we can see about establishing, say a separate Norse culture for dwarves. Once we've got both straight, then we can decide to where on the map we're going to put the Scots dwarves, and the Norse dwarves can go somewhere else. But we could really do with at least one unified culture for each race to start with, before we diversify.

Apart from anything else, we haven't yet decided whether they're going to be Edinburgh Scots dwarves or Aberdeen Scots dwarves. I'd be happy to have Yorkshire and Glasgow dwarves too, TBH, but even the best current dwarvish accent does seem to be a pastiche to me. We need to nail that down first.

[melinath]

What earth literature?

Either way, it's basically picking one method of how they talk in one type of literature over another.

Sorry, clarification: the origins of dwarves come from Germanic/Norse literature and mythology. Not from Scottish. Of course these are Tolkien-esque dwarves, but he was inspired by Norse Dwarves. I don't know where the Scottish thing comes from.

[The1exile]

Because it's a recognisable accent that lots of people now associate with dwarves, for one notable reason... I don't have any objection to dwarves having any accent people want them to have, but it's worth bearing in mind that different regions of Wesnoth would probably have different accents anyway - the ones we meet in NR and tHoT are northerners I can't remember if the SoF dwarves had a noticeable accent tbh...

Dwarves with Scottish accents definitely predate the latest LoTR films (voice clips from BG2 show that) but is Wesnoth LoW's dwarves are definitely shown to be Scottish.