Wesnothian Poetry

[melinath]

Hurray! We have Wesnothian poetry!
But what does that mean?

Here are the poems and a short analysis of the structure of each one:

The Breaking of the Pact, by Turin the Bard and Autolycus:

When Haldric landed on this shore
From oceans wide and deep,
He had no scholars learn'd in lore,
No kin, nor land to keep.

So Haldric founded with his men
The Land which poets sing,
He named it Wesnoth, 'Verdant Glen',
And ruled as lord and king.

Now, in their forests dim and green,
The Elves were hard at war,
With villains they had never seen
The likes of which before.

The Orcs were harsh, the Orcs were fell,
The Orcs were grim and mad;
The Elves did hate these foes right well,
Who killed them and were glad.

The Elves sent messengers that day
Who hoped to save their land;
They went to Wesnoth far away,
And found the race of Man.

The race of Men, a short-lived breed,
Could sicken, fail and die;
But in that hour the Elves had need,
Brave hearts did Man supply.

Across a field of shattered foes
The Elves and Men took oath,
To help with swords and spears and bows,
Though now 'twas peace for both.

Haldric still lived in times that came,
When Orcs attacked again;
The Elves lit bright the beacon flame,
For Haldric's valiant men.

Then came the night, the battle flared,
From sunset until dawn;
The Elves fought hard, and strove, and dared
For Haldric's hope at morn.

But as the Elves began to fall,
(Will Haldric's shieldmen hear?)
Their doubt and darkness covered all
(Where are his sword and spear?)

Their oath betrayed, their fury spent,
They steeled themselves to die;
But from a last beleaguered tent
Came forth a mighty cry.

Belian the Mighty raised his sword,
To slay Orcs far and near;
The flame he bore, his lifting word,
They saved the land held dear.

The Orcs held firm, though grave their plight,
With Belian on the field;
The Elves, hard-pressed to turn the fight,
Missed sorely Haldric's shield.

But then the sun rose in the East
And Belian's head crowned gold;
The elves surged forth o'er Orc and beast
To slaughter them tenfold.

No Orcs remained, the field was clear,
The Elves had won the day;
But none of Haldric did appear
From Wesnoth far away.

So in that hour, the pact foresworn,
Elves bitter words did say;
And sent no aid when Orcish morn
Lit Wesnoth far away.

16 4-line stanzas (64 lines total). Almost completely regular iambs. Alternates 4 feet, 3 feet. Rhyme scheme: abab, "masculine".
=====================

An Untitled Poem about Gwiti Ha atel, by Elvish Pillager and Autolycus:

A necromancer cold as lead,
a battle fought by Ezren's stone;
he raised the corpses of the dead
and made his eldritch power known.

He through the darkness called to those,
the shades who heard from nether shore
who came to him, who dead arose;
They took his life and left no more.

They turned him into dark undead
to rise again, in evil bound;
he sought the living, blood to shed,
that they might be in undeath drowned.

The living cast him from the land
to perish on the ocean waves;
but he survived, and raised his hand
and sent foul monsters to their graves.

His brother then he came upon
and slew him with his undead hosts
and kept them marching on and on
to those who cast him from their coasts.

Then Leganoth came unto him -
a spirit great, of darkness made -
to steal the Skull from orcish limb
of Agarash, the spirit bade.

But half the skull was not enough;
he cast the spirit from this plane
and fought great battles with his staff
for old Crelanu's book, his bane.

The tome he wrested from its grove
where Orcs and Elves were long at war;
for he with Walking Corpses strove
to seize the book, and wanted more.

An army then accosted him
and he defeated it with ease;
but Paladins came after them
and undead vanished in the breeze.

He fled unto a mountain pass,
and came to gates of Dwarvish realms
where foes fought him until at last
his armies crushed their shields and helms.

There half the Skull of Agarash
was hidden in the ancient caves;
he fought another mighty clash
and made another field of graves.

But Orc steals skull and leaves alone,
and boulders fall and he is trapped;
yet minions dig a way through stone
and he falls not in darkness wrapped.

12 4-line stanzas (48 lines total). Almost completely regular iambs, 4 feet per line. Rhyme scheme: abab, "masculine".
=====================

The Voyage of Meneldur, by Turin the Bard and Autolycus:

The houses burned a fiery red;
The Watch raised forth alarms;
The villagers, they turned and fled
From force of orcish arms.

Meneldur held the streets till late,
A mighty elf was he,
A sailor on the seas of fate,
A staff of destiny.

"Back to the ship!" Meneldur boomed
As orcish might won through;
Elensefar the Fair was doomed
Despite Meneldur's crew.

They left the port a burning waste
The palace doors ajar;
They swore that though they left in haste,
They'd save Elensefar.

A mighty oath they offered then
On sword and bow and spear:
Elensefar would be again
The home they held so dear.

Meneldur set out to recruit
An army to defeat
The orcs who'd come to burn and loot
And pillage every street.

The first to join was Black the Red
Who joined the worthy cause
To save the home and make orcs dead
(The home, but not its laws.)

They traveled over sea and land,
Defeating orcs and men;
They trained a host to fight on sand,
On hill and plain and fen.

But one green isle they landed on
Was different from the the rest;
Their task was still too far from done -
There lurked a mighty test.

For elves condemned Meneldur's "theft"
Of craft from elves at war:
"Outcast!" they cried, "Our home you left
Returning nevermore!"

"We have aligned with orcs, no less,
To bring you to your doom!"
(Consid'ring not the lawlessness
Their act would thus assume.)

Meneldur to his vast dismay
Must slay both kin and orcs;
And having done, he sought to try
The path where danger lurked.

"Return we to Elensefar!"
The crew yelled out in cheer,
Disdaining orcs which tried to bar
Their path to home so near.

The ships made land, a host aboard,
The flame of war alight -
At first they won by craft of sword,
And courage in the fight.

But elves appeared, this much is known,
And men from Wesnoth-land,
To make Elensefar their own.
(Not what Meneldur planned!)

The weary host, a motley crew,
Meneldur's heroes all,
Said, "Captain, we will follow you
Though half our number fall!"

They triumphed though the field seemed lost
After a battle grim,
But victory came at heavy cost
Of friendly life and limb.

Elensefar at last was free
From reign of foeman scum;
Meneldur's host, their Lord was he
To make a nation one.

So now we end Meneldur's tale,
Of riot, wrath and doom;
We leave him now to sip his ale
And tip-toe from the room.

19 4-line stanzas (76 lines total). Almost completely regular iambs. Alternates 4/3 feet. Rhyme: abab, "masculine".
The end of this poem is very strange because it implies the presence of Meneldur in the room where the poem is being read. Also, it implies that the poem is being read/performed/spoken in a tavern. I'll go into this in more detail farther on in the post.
=====================

Last Stand of the Birchwood Band, by Becephalus:

A golden sun, a bloody field.
The Orcish host refused to yield.

Hundreds had we slain that day.
Trolls as well, while we were fey.

But now the day is grinding on,
and greater hosts menace yon.

The vim and vigor of expected glory,
wanes and ebbs as fates turn gory.

Our Captain slain whilst sol did set.
His child and wife I never met.

On the left our treefriends burned.
On our right the flank was turned.

The mortal men had finally fled.
Their leaders left behind for dead.

An elder shaman atop a hill,
gave her foes a mighty chill.

As she fell Isar did groan,
For truly now our band was lone.

“Onward!” he cried,
And hence we hied.
For what ends,
had our best died?

A fen, a stream?
The elders’ dream?
Quickly these words,
had lost their gleam.

Across the glen we sang and slew,
and reddened blades could scarcely hew,
the tide (of?) foes,
through which (we?) flew.

Then Amor lay stricken,
as goblins thickened,

Whilst fair Urandel the sad,
went slowly mad.

Our band was broken,
except a token,
round mighty Isar's blade.

Yet even heroes are bound to fall,
when duty makes them heed a call,
Not for justice or the right,
but for ambition in us all.

Their courage spent,
their clothing rent,
the sharpest steel,
was slowly bent.

Tonight's a night,
shall live in lore.
Brave Isar's banner,
flies no more.

With line-by-line comments:

Code: Select all

A golden sun, a bloody field.				I4m
The Orcish host refused to yield.			I4m

Hundreds had we slain that day.			I/T 4m
Trolls as well, while we were fey.			I/T 4m

But now the day is grinding on,			I4m
*and greater hosts menace yon.			/I4m

*The vim and vigor of expected glory,		I4f
wanes and ebbs as fates turn gory.		I4f

Our Captain slain whilst sol did set.			I4m - also, sol isn't correct.
His child and wife I never met.				I4m

On the left our treefriends burned.			I/T 4m
On our right the flank was turned.			I/T 4m

The mortal men had finally fled.			I4m
Their leaders left behind for dead.			I4m

*An elder shaman atop a hill,				I4m
gave her foes a mighty chill.				I/T 4m

As she fell Isar did groan,				I/T 4m - Unnatural rhythm.
For truly now our band was lone.			I4m - forced word use.

"Onward!" he cried,						TI2m		A
And hence we hied.						I2m		A - hied?
For what ends,							??2m	B
had our best died?						TSp?2m?	A

A fen, a stream?						I2m		A
The elders' dream?						I2m		A
Quickly these words,					TI2m		B
had lost their gleam.					I2m		A

Across the glen we sang and slew,			I4m		A
and reddened blades could scarcely hew,	I4m		A
the tide (of?) foes,						I2m		B
through which (we?) flew.					I2m		A

Then Amor lay stricken,					DTf
as goblins thickened,					TTf

Whilst fair Urandel the sad,				???m
went slowly mad.						I2m

Our band was broken,					I/T2f		A
except a token,						I/T2f		A
round mighty Isar's blade.				I3m		B

Yet even heroes are bound to fall,			IIAIm		A
when duty makes them heed a call,		I4m		A
Not for justice or the right,				T4m		B
but for ambition in us all.					I4m		A

Their courage spent,					I2m		A
their clothing rent,						I2m		A
the sharpest steel,						I2m		B
was slowly bent.						I2m		A

Tonight's a night,						I2m		A
shall live in lore.						I2m		B
Brave Isar's banner,						I2f		C
flies no more.							T2m		B

The stanzas, lines, and rhyme scheme change a lot in this poem. See the comments for details. There are a total of 32 lines. At one point, I added words in parentheses because they seemed to have been left out by mistake - that is to say, without the words, the rhythm is broken and the sentence doesn't make sense. There were also some lines that were rather forced. I'll go into more detail later.
=====================

The Heart of the Frozen Forest: Folklore, also know as 'The Secret of the Frozen Forest':

Her pines are as white hot steel,
Her light a blinding sun,
Her beauty a young bride's veil.

She is as mother to all,
one alone can enter her heart
and say he did not fall

Her pines are as white hot steel,
Her light a blinding sun,
Her beauty a young bride's veil.

With metrical analysis:

Code: Select all

Her pines are as white hot steel,  	o+|oo+|o+
Her light a blinding sun,			o+|o+|o+
Her beauty a young bride's veil.	o+|oo+|++

She is as mother to all,			+o|+o|+oo|+
one alone can enter her heart	+o|+o|+oo|+
and say he did not fall			o+|o+|o+

Her pines are as white hot steel,	o+|oo+|o+
Her light a blinding sun,			o+|o+|o+
Her beauty a young bride's veil.	o+|oo+|++

This poem consists of three stanzas, each with three lines. Total: twelve lines. There is no solid rhyme or rhythm scheme. The first and last stanzas are identical. What really separates this poem from the others, though, is that the label in the wiki is not an author, but a Wesnothian source: "Folklore".
=====================

So. What have we got? A total of 229 lines. The three longest poems have a clear formal structure; the two shorter poems are more chaotic. In general, these poems are very strongly influenced by what you could called "modern fantasy poetry" - the kind of thing you'd expect as a prophecy at the beginning of the novel, for example. Simple rhyme, very rhythmic, occasional usage of faux-archaic words. In other words, from a modern literary perspective, though some of these poems are better than others, they are all, generally speaking, bad genre poetry.

This is not necessarily a problem. Take, for example, a typical Medieval German poem: Erec. There aren't any complete manuscripts of this poem, but the version we do have is 10,135 lines long. The rhyme scheme is very reguler: aabbcc etc. The rhythm is... a bit complicated to explain, but basically, there are always four "rises" in a line. (I could explain in more detail at a later date.) So really, these poems are not nearly as monotonous. In fact, if we use epic German poetry as a comparison, these Wesnothian poems are relatively complex. (Unfortunately, I don't know much about Old English or Old Norse poetry, so I can't compare very well, but I believe it worked similarly.)

Never fear: I'm not going to say that anyone writing poetry for Wesnoth should first master the Medieval German rhythmic system. Although I think that would be an interesting idea, I also think it's not practical. However, the rhythmic system that Medieval German developed for epic poetry was adopted to a greater or lesser extent by writers of the time - and that conformity of style is something I think would greatly improve the feeling that there is "Wesnothian" poetry. My basic suggestion would be four feet per line, with aabbcc rhyme as the norm and abab cdcd as a rarely-used alternative.

Which brings us to another point: who is writing this poetry? The current poems seem to be written as a kind of fan fiction. The authors are people from the forums. One could dispute whether this is really "Wesnothian Poetry" or whether it's "Terran poetry about Wesnoth". The one exception is the "Heart of the Frozen Forest", which is listed as folklore (though it isn't said which folk.)

If this is truly "Wesnothian poetry", it should be written by people in the world of Wesnoth:

1. It would have to be different depending on who wrote it and why. For example, the general thought on Medieval German epic poetry is that it would have been read aloud in some sort of court setting. Sometimes, the speaker directly addresses an audience, and the poems were written down long after they were composed. The writers were educated. They often show signs of being familiar with various Latin texts. Although they probably learned from monks at some point in their lives, they were not tied to monasteries themselves. This is very different than a monk writing a saint legend. Note that written texts in medieval Europe were never meant to be read silently. Silent reading was a very rare ability. Just so that it's absolutely clear: There were not that many writers in Medieval Germany (compared to today). I think it would make sense to create various writer figures that live at various times in various places/courts/literary centers and let them be the ones who write.

2. Medieval German poetry was heavily influenced by Medieval French poetry. This brings up the question: Even if we accept that there should be a (fairly) uniform style for poetry, which group(s) should write in this style, and which should maybe have a different universal style for themselves? What are the cultural influences in Wesnoth? Did humans bring poetry with them, or did they maybe learn it from the elves?

3. The style of the poetry would also depend on the era. For now, I'd like to focus on the time around HttT, which I see as the core of Wesnoth. I would assume that there would not be much (human) literary activity until 417 YW, when Garard I seizes the throne and ends "years of strife and division". Anyone with more detailed knowledge about the history of Wesnoth can correct me on this. So human poetry written in 430 would have a much rougher feel to it than poetry written during Konrad's reign. One hundred years of polishing and creating a form would basically require anyone wanting to make a name for themselves as a poet to master and stick to it.

4. A couple miscellaneous things: Are there cultures that don't write poetry? Should we record what Wesnothian scholars might record (epic poems about important historical events), or should we also try to record short troubadour's songs etc? (On the second question, I'd tend towards the latter, as it allows much more freedom for writers.)

[thespaceinvader]

It's also worth bearing in mind that some of Wesnoth's societies - Dwarves in particular - have strong oral history traditions with a lot of rote memory of things like laws and histories. These would probably be told in verse forms for ease of memory.

I could see the dwarves being fans of epic heroic ballads, personally. I could also see them going for shakespearean-style theatre.

But overall, i think it's very limiting to ascribe a particular type of poetry to a particular species or race - there's no such thing as 'british' or 'american' poetry, why should there be 'dwarvish' or 'elvish' poetry? Describing just one scheme of meter or rhyme would be hopelessly limiting.

I'd say if you want to create material like this, you shouldn't hold yourself to just one area of the society you're trying to build. Make anything and everything from an official historian's courtly epics to a dive bar's ribald songs to a subversive's political pamphlets. Make the world diverse and varied. This is perhaps the most important thing in world-building. It's an area where Wesnoth (mainly by dint of being a game world and thereby having little room or need to focus on detailed world building) is quite lacking.

[melinath]

The Great Rings on poetry - quoted from the standards thread.

On another note: How would Wesnothians write poetry? I would kind of like to develop a human, dwarvish, and elvish poetry style. This is a long-term thought. I would propose basing it in medieval poetry forms, but the only medieval forms I'm familiar with are German. Does this seem like a reasonable thought, and is there anyone out there with knowledge of old English or old Norse?

Well for Dwarves, why not Scottish, since that's the accent they've been given? Granted, I don't know much about Scottish poetry myself.

Also, while I reiterate my views against cultural steriotyping, there will be dominant artforms in any culture. If one wished to create poetry styles for the different factions, why not reflect that? I'm thinking something like:

Dwarves: Scottish styles, as above.

Humans: very warlike heroic poetry, which glorifies the deeds of certain heros or leaders. The rural communities might have different tastes, with local folk songs and more rural/pastoral themes. Not too familiar with Medieval poetry, but think The Charge of the Light Brigade for themes/subject matter.

Elves: very sad/romantic, often about love or nature.

Though I'll confess I know much less about poetry than I should (I'm trying to recall what I learned in grade 12 Literature, but not a lot's coming back right now).

It's also worth bearing in mind that some of Wesnoth's societies - Dwarves in particular - have strong oral history traditions with a lot of rote memory of things like laws and histories. These would probably be told in verse forms for ease of memory.

I agree completely. Here's a basic breakdown of how I personally (currently) understand the literary traditions of the various races, partly based in general fantasy conceptions and partly based in how they are portrayed in Wesnoth:
Saurians: Completely oral. (T1)
Orcs: Completely oral. (T1)
Elves: Very literary, very sophisticated. They've been developing writing for a long time. (T2)
Dwarves: Runes as magical sigils/ for magical inscriptions, but not as everyday writing. Any literature would be oral. They probably know about writing but don't like it much. (T3)
Goblins: Completely oral. (T1)

So far, then, I've defined five races. Three (Orcs, Saurians, and Goblins) don't seem to use writing, but are allied and would likely share some common elements in their oral traditions. Dwarves probably do not write in the literary sense; their script (Elder Futhark) is used only for magical purposes (perhaps also the occasional monument) and they have a strong oral tradition. Elves definitely would have a written language and tradition and use a different script than the dwarves.

Now we come to Humans and Undead. This is where it gets tricky for me. I would say that the Wesfolk had their own form of writing which they brought east with them. This seems to fit with the current world created by the campaigns and other information. For example: in The Rise of Wesnoth, the mages are holding books, the mages learned magic from the Wesfolk, and generally speaking, the human magic script is being based off Cuneiform or Ugaritic, i.e. a third script. (Although theoretically the Elvish script could be cuneiform - that just doesn't seem elfy to me. Much more Wesfolky.)
The Wesfolk were a troubled folk. I doubt they would have had a high enough level of literacy to sustain a written literary tradition, and I don't know how interested the lichs would have been in funding poets. They would have still had tavern songs etc.
Assuming everything I've said so far is more or less correct, the Undead and the Humans would share a magic script. In addition to being magical symbols, the script could be used in magical research texts. However, it would not be used for literature.

I'm going to map out a vague timeline of influences on human literature/oral traditions in wesnoth and how I feel literature would evolve. When I use literature in this context, I'm referring to the idea of court poetry: epic poems, love poems, etc. which would be written at a high level and would be meant to be read before a court as entertainment.

1YW: the humans come to Wesnoth and meet the elves, who (in this view of things) have a strongly developed literary tradition.
8 YW: contact broken off.
20YW: contact resumed. Then follow centuries of uninterrupted contact with elvish culture.
25YW: first explicit contact with dwarves. Humans then generally continue to be on good terms with the dwarves, as well.
20-130YW: The Taming of the Wild. Here, the humans would still be coming to terms with the idea of literature.
200-350 YW: First Golden Age. First bloom of literature.
350-417: First Dark Age. Literature suffers from lack of funding.
417-530: Turmoil. Literature suffers more. However, at the latest in 470, with the ascension of Garard II to the throne, there would start to be some sort of literary activity. This would continue throughout Konrad and Li'sar's reign, Queen Ana'sar's reign, and a bit farther. Since this is the era I originally wanted to focus on, I'm not going to go through the rest of Wesnothian history.

But overall, i think it's very limiting to ascribe a particular type of poetry to a particular species or race - there's no such thing as 'british' or 'american' poetry, why should there be 'dwarvish' or 'elvish' poetry?

Keep in mind it's a matter of cultural influence. British and American culture have certain similarities and influence each other, so apart from small lexical differences, it's hard to tell their poetry apart. Dwarvish culture and orcish culture have much less to do with each other. This would be reflected by large differences in their poetic traditions. Compare American poetry with Swahili poetry or Arabic poetry.
Of course there would be cross-influences, but it's not that odd an idea that each group would have a specific style/form/preference when it comes to poetry.

Describing just one scheme of meter or rhyme would be hopelessly limiting.

I agree... I can't tell if you're saying this generally or if you think that I was trying to say we should only have one meter/rhyme scheme. In case it wasn't clear, the suggestion of four-footed iambs with couplet rhyme was only for oral epic poetry perhaps written by humans during a certain period. (The question is: what period? When might they start writing more like Shakespeare? Would they?) So it would be a very very small subset of all possible Wesnothian writing.

I'd say if you want to create material like this, you shouldn't hold yourself to just one area of the society you're trying to build. Make anything and everything from an official historian's courtly epics to a dive bar's ribald songs to a subversive's political pamphlets. Make the world diverse and varied. This is perhaps the most important thing in world-building. It's an area where Wesnoth (mainly by dint of being a game world and thereby having little room or need to focus on detailed world building) is quite lacking.

Indeed. Do we have any experts on medieval tavern songs? It's important, I think, while we're creating Wesnoth's writing that we not write from a modern fantasy style or a modern concept of how a medieval society works, but rather, that we look at examples from our own world. To draw a parallel to art: you learn to draw Wesnothian-style armor by looking at real armor, not by watching Xena, Warrior Princess.

[pauxlo]

I agree completely. Here's a basic breakdown of how I personally (currently) understand the literary traditions of the various races, partly based in general fantasy conceptions and partly based in how they are portrayed in Wesnoth:
Saurians: Completely oral. (T1)
Orcs: Completely oral. (T1)
Elves: Very literary, very sophisticated. They've been developing writing for a long time. (T2)
Dwarves: Runes as magical sigils/ for magical inscriptions, but not as everyday writing. Any literature would be oral. They probably know about writing but don't like it much. (T3)
Goblins: Completely oral. (T1)

So far, then, I've defined five races. Three (Orcs, Saurians, and Goblins) don't seem to use writing, but are allied and would likely share some common elements in their oral traditions.

Only mentioning: Orcs and Goblins are the same race (the stronger ones named "Orcs", the weaker ones "goblins"), not allied races.

[thespaceinvader]

I'd also suggest that the saurians would definitely have some form of written language, though it would probably be based on greek-style clay tablets, and may well not be used by most individuals - I envision the saurians as having a good understanding of astronomy and orbital mechanics etc, and you'd need at least some form of writing for that.

[AI]

Orcs are known to possess a crude system of writing - usually in blood - although it's most commonly used to trade insults or threats among tribal leaders.

This could be changed of course, but orcs do sign treaties from time to time.

[melinath]

Ah - thanks for the fact corrections, folks! I actually kind of like the idea of orcs trading insults. Perhaps they learned the script from the saurians but never really cared enough about it. (That would imply that the true orcs are sent to learn from the saurians at a young age. An alternative would be that some goblins are sent to the saurians and do the writing for the true orcs. Orcish culture doesn't seem like it would value education.)

On a more stylistic note: something very important about epic poetry occurred to me. It's not historically accurate. Even the historical ones elaborate and modify according to the political climate. Shakespeare did the same, for example in Richard III.

Practically speaking, this means that during Asheviere's reign, you might get writing about how Prince Eldred liberated Wesnoth from the evil clutches of Garard II. Or in writing about the Orcish Incursion, you might find mention of how the Elven King had seven advisors (or some other mystically significant number) and detailed descriptions about how each one kills thousands of orcs before dying. Even if this has nothing to do with the actual campaign. The advisors don't even have to be characters that actually exist in the campaign.

[thespaceinvader]

I'd suggest the orcs probably would have some form of their own simple pictographic scripting, developed to facilitate plans for hunts and battles in the mists of time. Not really writing in the sense of adding letters together to make words, but writing all the same. What the far eastern languages were when they first started, or cave painting +, if you like. They probably write it on any old scrap of wall they can find at the time, or on bits of wood or hide when they want to send it anywhere, in charcoal, or blood if they're feeling nasty.

I definitely don't like the idea of them sending their kids off to boarding school with the saurians... I think the alliance we saw in SotBE was more the exception than the rule - Kapou'e was a highly unusual orc leader for his intelligence, tactical nous, and willingness to cooperate with anyone not and orc, and not strong enough to splatter his head...

I doubt that they write down an awful lot of their history. I doubt that they really remember it much - SotBE shows that they value the families of their great leaders, and their great leaders themselves, but I doubt they have much interest past a generation or two back. This could also be, in part, down to low life expectancy. It's difficult to pass on histories when you don't tend to survive to old age. The traditions get carried on, but it takes time and effort to learn detailed history, and that time could better be spent fighting or hunting =D

[The1exile]

If it's alright to post some new attempts at Wesnothian (Troll and hopefully later Orcish) poetry here, I'd appreciate some commentary and suggestions to improve it. If they fit alright with the milieu, I intend to write the Song of an Elvish Captain in blank verse (rhyme being the creation of a barbarous age and all...). the story so far...

Chant of the Troll Shamans:

(By preference to be accompanied by a drum beat of boom-bah-boom-bah boom-boom-boom throughout with a break for two lines of the boom-bah-boom-bah in between stanzas, and read with appropriate stressing. The drum beat changes for the "Lightning flashes..." bit to a crescendo 1-2-3-4 drum beat before returning to normal. Lack of plurality throughout deliberate.)

Far we wander
Far we roam
Over hilltop
Far from home

Days of glory
Long since past
Troll in cavern
Never last

Dwarven rockmen
In our cave
Use their boomstick
Make us slave

Forward chieftain
Forward whelp
Crush their attempt
We need help

(Lightning flashes
Great Troll smashes
Lightning flashes
Great Troll smashes
Lightning flashes
Great Troll smashes!)

Forward shaman
Forward fire
Scatter steadfast
Feel my ire

Armour melting
Dwarven scream
Shaman's power
Rule supreme

Without Shaman
Trolls are doomed
Here we leave them
To their tomb

So we march on
Over hill
Looking for our
Foes to grill

Fiery lava
Cresting cloud
These we king of
And we proud

Fear we Shamans
Exiled still
Up on mountain
Up on hill

Great Troll leader
Heed our call
You will need us
Or will fall.

[melinath]

Some general things to consider:
1. Who wrote/composed this? When did they write/compose it? Where?
2. Is this about a concrete historic event? Said another way: what's the purpose of this piece? (Is it read at weddings? Do they chant it on the way to the battlefield?)

Specific critique:
I like that you added a bit of detail on how this should be read (with drums!) I also wish you luck with the writing of troll poetry. It's an interesting project. A few things:
1. Lack of plurality throughout deliberate.
Lack of plurality could, as far as I'm concerned, be characteristic of the way trolls speak. Out of curiosity, is this meant as a dialect, a sign of stupidity, or a sign of not knowing the language well? In any case, if you're going to use lack of plurality, use it consistently, i.e. eliminate plurals like days, rockmen, trolls, etc.

2. Rhythm
The rhythm in this poem is very regular. (^_^_) Except in one place. The line "Crush their attempt" (^_ _^) doesn't fit at all. In modern poetry, they'd say this was a good variation; however, since this is meant to be read with drums, it doesn't work.

3. Language
Personally, the following words don't sound trollish to me:
attempt, steadfast, foes to grill, cresting cloud, exiled.
Perhaps lower-register words like:
try, hard, kill, floating, outcast

On the other hand, be careful with the syntactical simplification:

These we king of
And we proud

The lack of plurals, leaving out "to be", and probably my experiences with Warcraft II make these trolls sound a bit like caricatured Native Americans at the moment.

[Turuk]

Out of curiosity, is this meant as a dialect, a sign of stupidity, or a sign of not knowing the language well?

I'd prefer not to have this be a reflection of complete stupidity. I know the trolls are described as slow and simple-minded, but this could also be an indication of a race that does not put much stock in speaking, and so has never seen the need to speak rapidly or to employ more than simple words.

[thespaceinvader]

Trolls should hulk speak. The most intelligent of them can do this reasonably eloquently, but they still don't speak clearly in well-structured sentences (Gruu's dialogue in SotBE demonstrates this...).

So not stupidity, but simplicity of language and thought. Trolls can be cunning and tactically clever, but shakespeare they ain't.

[Cloud]

I see trolls as... not stupid but perhaps a little dim-witted. Cunning yes, tactical... perhaps not. I think they could understand the importance of certain things in battle, but they can only really focus on one thing at a time. If they could play chess they'd be the sort of player that moves their pieces only thinking about the turn they're on, and not two or more turns in the future.

I take this from Gruu in SotBE (I have a plan... we smash em) and the bridge troll in THoT (who the dwarves almost pass without conflict by attempting to distract him, and almost do). They can both focus on the moment, but not on much else beside that.

[thespaceinvader]

Trolls are direct. Simple as that. Problem? Splat it. Can't splat it? Not trying hard enough...

[The1exile]

Some general things to consider:
1. Who wrote/composed this? When did they write/compose it? Where?
2. Is this about a concrete historic event? Said another way: what's the purpose of this piece? (Is it read at weddings? Do they chant it on the way to the battlefield?)

1. Any shaman you like.
2. It's probably a history-come-marching chant. It describes the (possibly completely fictitious canon-wise) exile of the troll shamans, and egotistically prophesies the fall of all trolls without shamans.

Specific critique:
I like that you added a bit of detail on how this should be read (with drums!) I also wish you luck with the writing of troll poetry. It's an interesting project. A few things:
1. Lack of plurality throughout deliberate.
Lack of plurality could, as far as I'm concerned, be characteristic of the way trolls speak. Out of curiosity, is this meant as a dialect, a sign of stupidity, or a sign of not knowing the language well? In any case, if you're going to use lack of plurality, use it consistently, i.e. eliminate plurals like days, rockmen, trolls, etc.

Yeah, it needs some proofreading. I was quite tired when I wrote it. However, it's meant mostly to identify the trolls as, well, trollish. Turuk is on the button really - even Shamans, the relatively smart trolls, are not used to speaking, so while they're less likely to say the things Gruu in SotBE does, they will have his pattern of speech.

2. Rhythm
The rhythm in this poem is very regular. (^_^_) Except in one place. The line "Crush their attempt" (^_ _^) doesn't fit at all. In modern poetry, they'd say this was a good variation; however, since this is meant to be read with drums, it doesn't work.

Hmm. I had no problem trying to read this (as "CRUSH-their-Ah-ttempt...") but as it needs to rhyme it can easily be changed to a suitable replacement. I'll try and post some suggested modifications to the poem later, but feel free to post your own improvement suggestions.

3. Language
Personally, the following words don't sound trollish to me:
attempt, steadfast, foes to grill, cresting cloud, exiled.
Perhaps lower-register words like:
try, hard, kill, floating, outcast

Attempt, as above, can change, but probably not try because of the syllables. Steadfast describes the unit as well so I'm reluctant to change it. Grill is a reference to the undermentioned fireball-shooting of the shamans. CDesting I just like the sound of, and I feel it's easier to stress than floating. Outcast works, and I'll probably change it.

Really, though, even if a word doesn't sound trollish so long as it's not ridiculously eloquent my first reaction would be to think "well, Shamans are the smart ones." It's quite possible that whelps marching along to it will not know all the words and will do the Pratchettian second-verse-of-the-national-anthem and just go "dah-dah-dah-dah" where appropriate.

On the other hand, be careful with the syntactical simplification:

These we king of
And we proud

The lack of plurals, leaving out "to be", and probably my experiences with Warcraft II make these trolls sound a bit like caricatured Native Americans at the moment.

Hmm. The caricaturing of Americans definitely wasn't intentional, but I see what you mean. I think it may just be a wording thing, though, as this paragraph seems to stand out more than "Make us slave" or "Or will fall". Suggestions to change it welcome.