Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Pentarctagon » February 17th, 2018, 4:26 pm

Xalzar wrote:Here, this is an interesting topic to discuss: WHEN should the Dunefolk make their existence known to the races of the Great Continent? When does their timeline cross path with the Wesnoth one?
That really depends on how much you want to alter the existing timeline. The earlier you put them and the more significant their impact, the more existing Wesnoth history would need to be revised. That can be done, of course, but it would obviously be a much larger effort than making their appearance be towards the end of the current timeline and-or having their interactions with most of the rest of the races be few and far between(which is one of the reasons I liked CelticMinstrel's description naming the Nagas in particular - it would be that they have had significant interactions, just not with races normally covered).
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by name » February 17th, 2018, 5:04 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:So even if/when a Dunefolk campaign aiming for mainline does come along, the same sort of discussion that we're having at the moment would need to take place anyway.
I agree that waiting for and leaving it up to a mainline campaign to define the theme and background for a muliplayer faction is silly.

Similarly though, trying to write a description for a faction without first getting clear on what their theme is or what kinds of units they will have is putting the cart before the horse. This is first and foremost a multiplayer faction. So questions that directly affect a multiplayer faction and shape it need to be answered before others:

What is the core theme of the dunefolk faction? Why?
What game play features of the dunefolk faction define it? Why?
What kinds of races/creatures can the faction have or not have in its recruits? Why?
What kinds of unit abilities can the faction have or not have in its recruits? Why?

These questions are fundamental.
Xalzar wrote:Here, this is an interesting topic to discuss: WHEN should the Dunefolk make their existence known to the races of the Great Continent? When does their timeline cross path with the Wesnoth one?
As soon as they arrive on the great continent.

Humans are not native to the great continent, so the dunefolk had to arrive at a particular point in time. If you want interaction between them and other races, have them arrive earlier.

If you do want interaction, have them arrive later. And then seriously consider Celtic_Minstrel's idea of putting them in an After the Fall era with drakes, dwarves, sand elves and other new or modified races that fit that time period and environment. Default era is for the time period of about eight centuries surrounding Heir to the Throne and involves factions that interacted with the kingdom of wesnoth during that time.

But having the dunefolk arrive early and then just hide in the desert or be ringed in by a moat of assorted obstacles is convoluted and pointless. Either make them a part of the era or give them their own era.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Pentarctagon » February 18th, 2018, 7:38 am

Cold Steel wrote:*words*
If that's the direction people feel we need to go, then fine, though honestly going back to basic questions like that after over a month and nearly 200 posts is more than a little discouraging :?

I'd much rather use Celtic_Minstrel's description as a new starting point, and discuss ways it could be improved/expanded.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Xalzar » February 18th, 2018, 10:38 am

Pentarctagon wrote: I'd much rather use Celtic_Minstrel's description as a new starting point, and discuss ways it could be improved/expanded.
Yes, please let's do that.
This topic risks becoming a dog chasing its tail. :hmm:

There is time to revisit the description, but for now let's get something done. It's beautiful to discuss about things, but we can't fly forever and never land anywhere (that's unexpectedly poetic :lol: ).

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by name » February 18th, 2018, 4:46 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:If that's the direction people feel we need to go, then fine, though honestly going back to basic questions like that after over a month and nearly 200 posts is more than a little discouraging :?
Quite a lot of those posts went into name changes for the faction, race and its units for v1.14. Mission accomplished on that.

But we only really skimmed over any deeper discussion about what the faction is about (and not about). And it seems like there is not a lot of clarity on the fundamental questions that define it. You do not need answers to deeper questions to come up with names but you do need them when describing a faction in detail, outlining its history and game play balancing it.
Pentarctagon wrote:I'd much rather use Celtic_Minstrel's description as a new starting point, and discuss ways it could be improved/expanded.
It lacks meat. When I boiled it down, it was said to be too skinny. Adding redundant statements and fluff bulks it up to look more like a normal description in terms of word count. But that is just fat; it really needs muscle. Muscle comes from having things to say about the dunefolk that are both on theme and (at least vaguely) game play relevant.

But we cannot discuss their biology, because even though it has been decided they are classified as another race they are simultaneously human. So no new ground to cover there. We seem to be divided on how much of their history we can decide without writing a whole campaign for them first (I personally do not see why pre-writing their history is controversial). Finally, without being clear on theme and what types of units and abilities they can/will have we cannot discuss the most game play relevant aspects of them. So I have tried to raise these topics for discussion (though they tend to get buried in the turmoil of the topics).

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Pentarctagon » February 18th, 2018, 5:04 pm

Cold Steel wrote:
Pentarctagon wrote:If that's the direction people feel we need to go, then fine, though honestly going back to basic questions like that after over a month and nearly 200 posts is more than a little discouraging :?
Quite a lot of those posts went into name changes for the faction, race and its units for v1.14. Mission accomplished on that.

But we only really skimmed over any deeper discussion about what the faction is about (and not about). And it seems like there is not a lot of clarity on the fundamental questions that define it. You do not need answers to deeper questions to come up with names but you do need them when describing a faction in detail, outlining its history and game play balancing it.
No, I mean this thread itself was started over a month ago at this point.
Cold Steel wrote:
Pentarctagon wrote:I'd much rather use Celtic_Minstrel's description as a new starting point, and discuss ways it could be improved/expanded.
It lacks meat. When I boiled it down, it was said to be too skinny. Adding redundant statements and fluff bulks it up to look more like a normal description in terms of word count. But that is just fat; it really needs muscle. Muscle comes from having things to say about the dunefolk that are both on theme and (at least vaguely) game play relevant.

But we cannot discuss their biology, because even though it has been decided they are classified as another race they are simultaneously human. So no new ground to cover there. We seem to be divided on how much of their history we can decide without writing a whole campaign for them first (I personally do not see why pre-writing their history is controversial). Finally, without being clear on theme and what types of units and abilities they can/will have we cannot discuss the most game play relevant aspects of them. So I have tried to raise these topics for discussion (though they tend to get buried in the turmoil of the topics).
Alright. In which case, what would you like to see added and-or improved about it? It's fine to raise questions that should be answered, but it's even more helpful to provide your own take on what those answers should be.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » February 18th, 2018, 7:08 pm

Cold Steel wrote:And then seriously consider Celtic_Minstrel's idea of putting them in an After the Fall era with drakes, dwarves, sand elves and other new or modified races that fit that time period and environment.
I think you're either misunderstanding my idea or taking two of my ideas as one (but I'm not sure if I actually mentioned the second idea in this thread before).

The actual ideas are:
  1. Create an "After the Fall" era which contains the Quenoth elves and some other factions, at least partially derived from Under the Burning Suns. It could also contain some factions that remix the races of the default era factions.
  2. Create an "era" which contains factions roughly contemporary with the default era (or maybe a little later than it) but is centered around the dunefolk. So, it would have the dunefolk, maybe a jinn-centric faction, perhaps a drake-troll faction, maybe a southern dwarves faction, and there would be nagas in some faction too (possibly even the dunefolk, but not sure). This one wouldn't include the Quenoth elves, for obvious reasons. It could also add some invented factions from east of the desert.
In addition to discussing the dunefolk description, I think we need to be discussing other things about the faction (though we could have a separate thread for it if preferred):
  • Do we want to change any of the existing units in any way? Cold Steel seems to want one or both of the horse lines changed to ride a giant/dire rhinoceros. (I use the adjective "dire" here because, in the Pathfinder RPG, a lot of prehistoric animals are classified as "dire <general-category>. For example, if I recall correctly, "dire tiger" is a saber cat.) I don't think changing the mounts of either horse line is an option though, unless you also remove the potential merging of the lines at level 2.
  • Do we want to add new units to the culture? They don't necessarily need to be units that will be in the faction itself; they could also be campaign-only units like the dwarvish scout. Some ideas that have come up include: wyvern riders, roc/rukh, dire-rhino-riders, camel-riders, eland-riders. Other possibilities could include a rare magic-using unit or something jinn-related.
  • At some point I put forth the idea of adding a unique trait to the dunefolk race which grants some bonus to fire resistance. Lore-wise the explanation for this trait would be something related to the jinn, so it could be called something like "jinn-blooded" or "jinn-touched". The idea is that some dunefolk have a particularly close relation to the jinn, and thus gain this supernatural benefit. There hasn't been a lot of discussion over whether this trait is a good idea or not. I think some people did comment on it, though I can't recall the details.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by name » February 19th, 2018, 1:06 am

Pentarctagon wrote:Alright. In which case, what would you like to see added and-or improved about it? It's fine to raise questions that should be answered, but it's even more helpful to provide your own take on what those answers should be.
Fair enough, these are my answers to the questions I raised:


What is the core theme of the dunefolk faction? Why?

Near eastern mythology.

The multiplayer factions of wesnoth default era are based largely on european myths. Adding to this the myths from the only neighboring region is a logical expansion. It brings in new striking visual and conceptual themes, such as flying magic carpets, fiery yet ethereal jinni, colossal creatures like rocs and war elephants or indrik or karkadann, plus an ancient culture of mechanical inventiveness (see for examples Antikythera Mechanism and Aeolipile) whose epicenter was the near east driven by its many resident and surrounding Ancient Libraries.

What game play features of the dunefolk faction define it? Why?

Hit and run tactics using an array of specialized units. A predilection for sand terrain allows multiplayer maps to be balanced for both them and the also mobility focused drakes.

Wesnoth is a bit more defensively oriented than many strategy games. Another mobility and attack oriented faction helps balance this.

What kinds of races/creatures can the faction have or not have in its recruits? Why?

Any that fit a near eastern theme. Humans, Jinni, Rocs and Indriks or Elephants are fine examples. While not a race, a human magic carpet rider would be highly desirable in addition.

What kinds of unit abilities can the faction have or not have in its recruits? Why?

I am okay with a lack of attacks with the "magic" ability and instead relying on "marksman". However I think there should be no taboo against any ability type, except those that are specific to another faction, like ambush is for rebels. It would be nice to see one more type of special ability used by a directly recruitable unit too (the "charge" ability is wasted on the pitiful falcon). And possibly a unit with a ranged "marksman" attack.

Celtic_Minstrel wrote: I think you're either misunderstanding my idea or taking two of my ideas as one (but I'm not sure if I actually mentioned the second idea in this thread before). The actual ideas are:

Create an "After the Fall" era which contains the Quenoth elves and some other factions, at least partially derived from Under the Burning Suns. It could also contain some factions that remix the races of the default era factions.
Yeah, that first idea is exactly what I was referring to. My thinking is that, just as the forest dwelling elves evolved into the Quenoth elves, the human peoples in and around wesnoth evolved into the Dunefolk. Essentially, loyalists become dunefolk, rebels become quenoth, drakes and dwarves stay the same, undead and northerners... who knows.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Create an "era" which contains factions roughly contemporary with the default era (or maybe a little later than it) but is centered around the dunefolk. So, it would have the dunefolk, maybe a jinn-centric faction, perhaps a drake-troll faction, maybe a southern dwarves faction, and there would be nagas in some faction too (possibly even the dunefolk, but not sure). This one wouldn't include the Quenoth elves, for obvious reasons. It could also add some invented factions from east of the desert.
This second idea, for a geographically rather than chronologically distinct era, would be thematically strongest if set on the Old Continent. Dunefolk would represent the primary human civilization there in humanity's homeland, still holding against all the epic dangers the wesfolk hoped to escape when they fled to the green isle.

However, you would not expect to find elves or trolls on the old continent, possibly not saurians either. So instead you would have other, new races, native to that side of the world.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:In addition to discussing the dunefolk description, I think we need to be discussing other things about the faction (though we could have a separate thread for it if preferred):
Agreed.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Do we want to change any of the existing units in any way? Cold Steel seems to want one or both of the horse lines changed to ride a giant/dire rhinoceros. (I use the adjective "dire" here because, in the Pathfinder RPG, a lot of prehistoric animals are classified as "dire <general-category>. For example, if I recall correctly, "dire tiger" is a saber cat.) I don't think changing the mounts of either horse line is an option though, unless you also remove the potential merging of the lines at level 2.
It is true that I want to replace the appearance of the Dune Piercer (formerly Khaiyal) with a large, powerful, rhinoceros type creature like the mythical Indrik or Karkadann, or else a war elephant. I might like for this unit to also have 30% defense in shallow water as these creatures are partially adapted to such an environment in real life and because dunefolk have no water power, which is a balance issue for them.

However, the other horse unit, the Dune Rider (formerly Rami) I would replace with a magic carpet rider (flying move type). Possibly armed with only a ranged marksman attack, such as a crossbow or bow. This too would improve dunefolk water power a bit. Alternatively, this unit might replace the Dune Rover (formerly Jundi). The rover and rider are fairly redundant with each other, one should be replaced with something interesting.

I support changing the Dune Burner (formerly Naffat) into a Jinn unit with particularly high pierce resistance to counter dunefolk being imbalanced by weakness to loyalists and with no loss of mobility over all water terrains but only 10% defense there (essentially the reverse of how water affects the ghost).

I would replace the miserable Falcon with a unit line of much stronger and larger Roc.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Do we want to add new units to the culture?
It depends on whether this idea of the dunefolk having a scientific streak should be fully embraced or let go of. I think there are visually novel and compelling unit concepts based on the surprisingly advanced machinery of the near east from at least around 0 A.D., if not before. Siege machines reminiscent of armored fighting vehicles (and technically exactly that), complex mechanical computers/timing mechanisms, early steam engines, etc.

Having a mechanical fighting machine with historical roots, but exaggerated a bit to fit a fantasy setting, would be an interesting new unit concept.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:At some point I put forth the idea of adding a unique trait to the dunefolk race which grants some bonus to fire resistance.
Just be careful not to further exacerbate their imbalance over drakes.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by MathBrush » February 19th, 2018, 1:29 am

One thing to notice is that the Dune Rider does impact damage and is slower on hills/mountains, while the Dune Rover has blade damage and is great for crossing rough terrain. They play very differently against undead, and also against horsemen.

Edit: Also, I wanted to suggest again that the level Desert of Death in Son of the Black Eye be changed from bandits in the desert to Dunefolk in the desert.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Coffee » February 19th, 2018, 8:38 am

I've tried to avoid commenting on this kind of topic before as I originally didn't like the Khalifate (now Dunefolk) and had similar reservations to cold steel above (why no magic carpets/camels/genies/roks and no special unique to the race, etc.?). I even went so far as to create a separate faction "Arabian Nights" with the intention of including these more classical "middle eastern mythology" units to see what would come about and make a UMC MP campaign from this with ideas from 1001 nights and such, with extra units to be campaign specific (got an outline and a good start to this, but never finished it).

However, I have come to like the Dunefolk and learned a couple of things from doing the above that I'd like to share.

Firstly, the Dunefolk are based on Arab background. This means soldiers/flame thrower units/horses/falcons/basically all units already in Dunefolk faction. When mentioning magic carpets/genies/1001 nights/roks you are invoking Persian mythology. This is quite distinct and you can see that the names even for the Dunefolk are not Persian inspired, but Arab. i.e. Ali-Babar/Jasmine (Persian), something with a strong 'K' sound (Arab).

Secondly, the Dunefolk sprites are top-notch. Would be a shame not to use them properly. There is also a Wyvern rider Dunefolk image that could be used for campaigns as a special unit.

Also, playing MathBrush's short campaign (not sure if it is the best for this) did get me to appreciate the differences between the units a lot more for this faction. With hills and mountains there is a flavor to this faction that isn't present with other humans/orcs/elves over hilly terrain in particular. Also, obviously with sand there is a difference (defense/movement).

Lastly, we have the Desert Elves time period already and the story line second sun thing. I'm not that well-versed in the Wesnoth lore, but I can see this easily could be an opportunity to do something with this faction for mainline campaigns.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Caladbolg » February 19th, 2018, 6:12 pm

There already exists a basis for the Dunefolk- namely, the work that has already been done. There are unit sprites which are high quality, units have defined roles within a faction, and I assume some balancing has been done. They are not a placeholder for some other future faction (as evident by the fact that they have been added to mainline despite the controversies around the addition). Due to this, I disagree with Cold Steel's general idea. Even if I felt such a faction would be better than a more elaborate take on what we already have (and I'm not convinced of that), it would not be a faction of Dunefolk. When you boil it down, his ideas basically require almost the entire existing concept of Dunefolk to be scrapped and a brand new near-eastern mythology based faction to be created, using the label of Dunefolk as a means to get into mainline.

What we should be doing is improving the Dunefolk that we have, not creating something vaguely similar if you squint hard enough and calling it Dunefolk. Dunefolk are not near-eastern mythology inspired, they are near-eastern culture inspired. The latter can contain the former, but the mythology elements are not front-and-center.

Elves, dwarves and orcs are a fantasy element only by virtue of being featured in many fantasy works. Remove that context and they are basically humans with somewhat exaggerated physical features. I don't even consider them as a strong fantasy element. Even if I agreed to the idea of making the fantasy element more prominent, I think Cold Steel's ideas are a bit too much. The Dunefolk, currently a no-magic faction, are supposed to have a whole menagerie of fantastical creatures and incredible magic, making them the most visibly fantastical faction (the undead have skellies, ghouls, ghosts and mages; the Dunefolk would have Rocs, Djinn, prehistoric creatures flying carpets and what not, which would make them more diverse appearance-wise).

In addition, and maybe this is my bias due to more exposure to western mythology, I'd find flying carpets somewhat cartoonish in such a faction. The only way they wouldn't stick out as a sore thumb is if the rest of the faction had the same feel, but then it'd stick out from the other factions. The Al-Kamiya from the Era of Magic are like that and I greatly enjoy their aesthetic and feel, but it just wouldn't fit with the rest of the mainline factions. Not to mention that if we went with a very fantastical setting, the Dunefolk would feel like a discount Al-Kamiya.

I'm not opposed to the addition of more fantastical elements, changes in unit stats or new units. But I think these more fundamental changes should be sparse.
Adding/removing a unit or two? Ok. Replacing 3 or more units with something quite different? Not so much.
Adding more fantasy stuff? Ok in lore or potentially in abilities or units if used sparsely. But Dunefolk should remain a low-magic faction.
Just my 2 cents.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by name » February 20th, 2018, 8:33 pm

Coffee wrote:Firstly, the Dunefolk are based on Arab background.
I recall it being stated a number of times this faction is inspired by a number of near eastern cultures, including arabian, persian, turkish and perhaps even mongolian. When was it ever classified as purely arabian?

This is a good example of why I raised the question - What is the core theme of this faction? There seems to be either serious confusion or disagreement about what the theme actually is.
Coffee wrote:This means soldiers/flame thrower units/horses/falcons/basically all units already in Dunefolk faction.
Flame throwers are specifically greek. So if you interpret the faction as being purely arabian with no other cultural influences then you are left with soldiers, horses and falconry (if we pretend falconry was ever somehow useful in warfare). They lose the cataphract unit too, as that is persian.
Coffee wrote:Secondly, the Dunefolk sprites are top-notch.
Except they lack animations which are the vast majority of the sprite work.

Caladbolg wrote:There already exists a basis for the Dunefolk- namely, the work that has already been done.
A basis that is so vague that each one of us seems to come away with a different interpretation of what it is as well as being the focus of waves of roiling controversy over as many years as it has been around. And with the work already done being a drop in the bucket compared with what will be needed to meet mainline standards.
Caladbolg wrote:There are unit sprites which are high quality, units have defined roles within a faction, and I assume some balancing has been done.
There are sprites with no animations, units with bland and familiar roles/appearance and balancing is a mess with the large majority of online matches avoiding the khalifate era. All this after over twelve years of development and benefiting from mainline status for seven of them. Something is very wrong here.
Caladbolg wrote:What we should be doing is improving the Dunefolk that we have, not creating something vaguely similar if you squint hard enough and calling it Dunefolk. Dunefolk are not near-eastern mythology inspired, they are near-eastern culture inspired. The latter can contain the former, but the mythology elements are not front-and-center.
Wesnoth, especially mainline default era, is thoroughly mythology inspired. It has mythology elements front and center.

That dunefolk, the one mainline faction sterile of mythological elements, is so enormously less popular than all the rest says quite a lot.
Caladbolg wrote:Elves, dwarves and orcs are a fantasy element only by virtue of being featured in many fantasy works. Remove that context and they are basically humans with somewhat exaggerated physical features.
The elves are half faery and the orcs are half beast. Then you have their factional allies that are strikingly different. And then all the other factions and races in mainline.
Caladbolg wrote:The Dunefolk, currently a no-magic faction, are supposed to have a whole menagerie of fantastical creatures and incredible magic, making them the most visibly fantastical faction (the undead have skellies, ghouls, ghosts and mages; the Dunefolk would have Rocs, Djinn, prehistoric creatures flying carpets and what not, which would make them more diverse appearance-wise).
You can make a case that the dunefolk would be more fantasy than the loyalists and knalgan alliance. But they would certainly be less fantasy than undead and drakes. And less fantasy than rebels and northerners.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Deciton_Reven » February 20th, 2018, 10:19 pm

I mean as far as the sliding scale of mythology goes for mainline factions, like yeah the Loyalists are so mystical with their dudes with spears and dudes with swords, and dudes with spears on horses and dudes with swords on horses. Their only Mythological unit is the Merfolk they have, or arguably the mage. Dwarves are less than that though, taken as a clan of people the only Mythological unit is the Gryphon. If Dunefolk are supposed to be on the lesser end of the spectrum then the amount of Mythology units would have to be very low, possibly only a water presence. However if they are supposed to be the new standard of low then they want to be even less than Loyalist or Dwarves, and that's perfectly okay.

I mean Wyverns are sweet and all but faction balance has to be taken into account, as well as art. You can insist because only the base sprites are made it's no work at all to make new ones, but spriting, again, isn't magic. Artists don't just snap their fingers and mainline quality art comes out. You are very insistent your view of how the dunefolk should change is the right one, but it's not no matter how much you insist. What they are right now is the way they were meant to be designed and you should be trying to work with what they have to build an interesting culture and faction instead of slamming mythological creatures in and thinking that makes something more interesting. It probably won't even help the Dunefolk racial description since jinns and wyverns and such would be their own races.

Personally exploring how they made battlefield quality flamethrowers would be years more interesting than "magic did it" and storywise would actually be really cool. Having them be really skilled horse riders is far more interesting than saying "oh it's a exotic mount that's just better than a horse" because its the people not the mount that are cool dudes. Mythology is an easy out and doesn't make the people more interesting in the slightest.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by MathBrush » February 20th, 2018, 10:38 pm

Writing the Dunefolk campaign made me really focus on each unit type and their roles. It would be much easie to just add flavor to existing units than to revise everything, and I think there is room for it.

Dune Riders: I don’t think these should change. They are cheaper, faster, and heartier than Elven archers with good terrain defense and, at dawn and dusk, do more damage than elves. The Dunefolk are the only faction whose main archer unit is mounted, which is really iconic and should be a heme of the race.

Dune Rover: you could put some exotic stuff here. These look really cool, especially as they advance, but I think beginning players think they are the race’s melee units or archers when they are more like saurian skirmishes or poachers. A redesign that made them look fragile and agile (smaller, flowing robes) could also introduce a more exotic feel: Sand Dancers, or make them some sort of jinn drawn with little armor and cosmetically change the arrow attack to a piercing sand attack like the dust devil.

Dune soldiers: these guys are already really cool as master swordsman. Literally no other faction has marksman in melee. There are the basic melee units of the faction, and I don’t think they need a major change. The spear guard line has great graphics.

Dune piercer: This unit could use an overhaul. It is visually similar to the rider, but is melee oriented and lawful. A redesign could make it more exotic looking and emphasize the lawfulness (Dune Sunstrikers, or like someone said a rhino rider where the pierce attack is the rhino horn).

Dune Burner: Already awesome in every way. Please don’t change!

Dune herbalist: You could redesign towards jinn but the scientist flavor is pretty cool and blends well with the burner.

Falcon: a terrible unit. Why not give it a cool ability that blends well with the rest of the race? Especially over the water; you could give it a fishing ability that doubles the damage it does against non-flying units in the water. Or you could replace it with something mechanical, like a kite flyer or someone with DaVinci like wings.

But the easiest changes would be to realign/rename the rover and the piercer to emphasize their roles in better ways, together with buffing the falcon.

edit: outside of the falcon, I don’t think personally that anything has to hange. I just wrote the above in case people are itching for change. If there is some sort of vote system, I vote to keep things as-is with the Magic hating horse riding nomadic Dunefolk.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by name » February 21st, 2018, 12:07 am

Deciton_Reven wrote:If Dunefolk are supposed to be on the lesser end of the spectrum then the amount of Mythology units would have to be very low, possibly only a water presence. However if they are supposed to be the new standard of low then they want to be even less than Loyalist or Dwarves, and that's perfectly okay.
Wesnoth is a fantasy-mythology game that is light on realism. It is not unexpected that it attracts people who want what it offers. That a faction aiming to be the new standard low for the thing that helped attract people to this game in the first place, achieves only lackluster popularity is not a big surprise.
Deciton_Reven wrote:You can insist because only the base sprites are made it's no work at all to make new ones, but spriting, again, isn't magic. Artists don't just snap their fingers and mainline quality art comes out.
Because spriting isn't easy and because there is so much of it left to do, this is exactly the time to consider what serious changes could fix an ailing faction. You want to make changes before animating.
Deciton_Reven wrote:What they are right now is the way they were meant to be designed and you should be trying to work with what they have to build an interesting culture and faction
If the way they were meant to be was successful this thread wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be having this conversation. That it does and we are, means that way was wrong.
Deciton_Reven wrote:Personally exploring how they made battlefield quality flamethrowers would be years more interesting than "magic did it" and storywise would actually be really cool. Having them be really skilled horse riders is far more interesting than saying "oh it's a exotic mount that's just better than a horse" because its the people not the mount that are cool dudes. Mythology is an easy out and doesn't make the people more interesting in the slightest.
That is already covered without a mundane dunefolk. There already are technologies and skilled horse riders and cool dudes. The material already exists to tell those kinds of stories and they have been told.

But a multiplayer faction doesn't have named characters or intricate story telling. So it will live or die based on its unique game play and visual flair. Defining the dunefolk as mundane only limits them in both these ways.

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