Roboke's Island

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Re: Roboke's Island

Postby x42 » January 15th, 2015, 8:00 pm

Right on. How's it going?

I do have an explanation for the missing leadership: For solving the "watercolors", Roboke and Rosie are awarded experience. The custom 'post advance' events and messages didn't trigger correctly (will be fixed in 0.9.6). In your case Roboke gained a level "the normal way" (and default Master at Arms don't have leadership).

I've added turn limits 35,30,25 (easy/normal/hard) to "East again" and made the Amazon patrols re-spawn (new patrols arrive when one is defeated).
That fixes most of the issues there (needs a bit more playtesting).

Southern Caves: There's a now a message "A green hill in the middle of these mountains. That's odd." when one move on land close to the tile. That should give a clue. And also "There's a valve mechanism here, but it's of dwarven design. I cannot operate it" message if other units units move onto them (some better images for valves is urgently needed). Also reduced the amount of creatures spawned and made Nagas more common.

The cave-side village beyond the chasm (5,3) is not reachable here (you get to see the other side later). Since all individual scenario maps are just cropped from the complete island map, it ended up there. I've reduced the shroud-lift. Since you can't cross the chasm, it's no longer visible now.

Next up: Through the Hills. Yep, that needs work. Here it'll work to reduce recruitment to 2 turns (as Roboke leaves) and it definitely needs to become less random. The original idea was to also make it a two layer map (the water tiles can serve as gateway) but that didn't work out. Most player units are too slow on the hills to be of any use. Still I think it needs a creative approach and some rework but should not be removed and replaced by a message.

more later...

PS. do you mind if I add you to the credits for playtesting & valuable feedback?
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Re: Roboke's Island

Postby x42 » January 15th, 2015, 8:04 pm

(oops duplicate post - removed)
Last edited by x42 on January 16th, 2015, 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Roboke's Island

Postby Chep » January 15th, 2015, 9:34 pm

Hey, just finished the campaign and saw you posted here :)

okay, so:

- East again: Sounds good. 25-35 turns are more than enough time for the level, but since the green (?) player doesn't have a leader the Amazon Patrols just roam around in the northern part of the map and don't exert any pressure anyway.

- Southern Caves: The new creature numbers probably need some playtesting but overall the changes sound good.

- Through the Hills: I recalled a Mermaid and a Siren to heal the Galleon plus a red mage to just stand in the keep and attract the bats and forced my way to the keep (reached it around turn 15 I think). I don't really see how this scenario could be made more interesting. MAYBE adding a treasure chest on the northeastern side or so could make it more intriguing for the player to explore this map.
Or you could block the most direct route in a way that it can be "unlocked" by using your units (suggestion: Merfolk Siren). This could be by placing a huge monster in the path that becomes friendly if a Siren is next to it (and basically hypnotizes it) or having a few tiles that can be flooded by moving a unit somewhere.
Right now the map doesn't offer anything there is no puzzle, no real fight, just move past those annoying animals that slow you down.

- Insidious Deceit: This map seems to come from out of nowhere
Spoiler:

Also you can recruit Elvish Shamans, you might want to change that to Amazonian Shamans or something to fit the archers in the future (sure not really important)
Blackies archers are rather useless for the scenarios they're in, leaving her with basically only the Shamans to recruit, making her games a bit boring. Also she is quite useless. How about she picks up/finds some fire arrows or blunt arrows (impact damage) somewhere on this map to make her more useful?

- Reunion: I like dungeoncrawling. This one is a bit short but still quite fun.

- Crater Island: another short one. Again without a turnlimit :/
Concerning turn 3-4:
Spoiler:

Can be won without using too many units (Netcasters and Tritons are amazing against the Dragon) but I think giving it a turn limit and giving the player some passive gold income or increasing the income from villages for this map could improve it.
I have no idea why I should want to use Galleons on a Lake to fight creatures that are resistant to the Impact damage it deals. Recruited one for fun, never used it.
Again this map could be converted to one with 1-2 turns of recruiting (Roboke: "We need to make sure that the Queens men / the Undead / whatever don't flank us while we're fighting the dragon. This is why I only take a small group of handselected Fighters with me, while the rest of you makes sure no one else gets to the Crater Lake" - Rosie: "If you think I'll stay behind to let you have all the glory for yourself, you're even dumber than you look, Robbie" - "But I just want to keep you safe...."), keeping the no-turn-limit part. (or really high turn limit).
The design of the lake however is rather frustrating as you can only have 1vs1-matches at the chokepoints and if you want to use your numbers to your advantage you have to let the Drakes out of the lake. -> reason for higher turn limits.

- Western Crypt:
Spoiler:

Blue Player suffers from the limited choices of units she can use (Holy Water is rather useless for ranged champions) while having to defend 3 openings from which enemies can come.
Still, overall rather easy level as the highlevel-mages can just blaze through it and the overabundance of holy water makes everyone else also slize through undead as if they were air.
Also: Why would the death of the Blue Players Leader cause my mission to fail?

- The Ghost of Ignisador: Only red player can toggle between hills & caves, which is annoying for the 2 others sometimes. However it seemed unnecessary to add the hills-layer to me. The best way to kill the Lich is relying on your Merfolk, if you have any left. You'll need a few netcasters and some Sirens, Mermaids then just fight your way to the back of his keep. My red mages took a few turns longer to get there.
Why is the Queen completely irrelevant? She should at least say something along the lines of her power/influence/... fading when you kill the Lich or curse you and tell you that you might have beaten her, but the Lich will finish her fight if you kill her first.

Since this is the final map here it is completely okay not to have a turn limit and have gold income at the same time.

----

General Feedback:
- really love the beginning of the campaign and the map-usage
- the "move the Dwarf/Galleon somewhere"-maps get boring quickly, imho. Making them non-recruit-maps (or maps where you can recruit for 1-2 turns only) could alleviate that
- never thought I'd say this, but: you have to many items (rings, armors, swords...) placed in your campaign, this reduces their novelty factor and value. Also why is there always lots of holy water lying around everywhere? I could understand if there were a shrine or a secret crypt with 1-2 bottles but not the 2-5 in every single scenario with undead. You have a fire-blade, you have Mages both Red & White, you have Merfolk...it seems excessive and unnecessary (also: this might make the Iron Mauler-line-units interesting since they could replace the holy-water-melee-fighters. Maybe one of the armors in the map doesn't improve the resistances of the unit wearing it but instead allows you to recruit 2-4 lvl 2 maulers? "We found some parts of impressive Dwarish Armor here" - Canoneer: "Hey, I bet I could turn those into some protection for a few of you humans.....[Pause]....Hm looks like it could be enough for a small handful of men")
- Contrasting this: You had this cool feature in one of the first maps where there were small amounts of gold lying around in caves. Why not do that more often? (Yes, I know, Reunion has some treasures lying close to your keep but I liked those tiny amounts from the beginning more)
- the 2nd half of the campaign felt a lot less....thought out...than the first few levels. Also there is no real resolution at the end: What happens with the Queen? Will R&R become a couple? Will they return home? Will Roboke become the new King of the Island and take over Wesnoth in Part 2 of the Campaign?^^

PS: Why should I mind? I am honored :)
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Re: Roboke's Island

Postby x42 » January 16th, 2015, 2:17 am

quick reply,

I like the armor to mauler idea, and also had very similar ideas for the "Through the Hills". I'm still working on that.

Crater Island:
Spoiler:


The Galleons are indeed not very useful here (though I found them very practical in the last scenario to blast a way to the backdoor. That route needs to become more difficult. The skeleton in the cave in the center should lend itself for that, it's too weak, merely a guard at the moment.
Spoiler:


You keep me busy updating/fixing the campaign. Going slow today.
There are again lots of good suggestions in your feedback, I'll comment on the rest when I get to do it.
Speaking of which, hows your WML? Can you edit campaigns are you familiar with git?
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Re: Roboke's Island

Postby Chep » January 16th, 2015, 2:32 pm

Hi :)

x42 wrote:quick reply,

I like the armor to mauler idea, and also had very similar ideas for the "Through the Hills". I'm still working on that.

sounds good :)


Crater Island:
Spoiler:


x42 wrote:The Galleons are indeed not very useful here (though I found them very practical in the last scenario[...]


By now you should have quite a couple of lvl 3 Merfolk, even 1-2 Tritons with Storm Tridents (or rather Fire Tridents). Can the Galleons actually move into the enemy keep? if so then yeah they might be worth a shot in this level but overall they're not really needed when you have Mermaids & Sirens.


Using the mountains as an alternative to walking through the tunnels is an option in some scenarios, but usually your units move much faster in the tunnels than over the mountaintops. (MAYBE introduce a pair of boots somewhere in the campaign that reduce movement costs over mountains?)


Insidious Deceit
Spoiler:


I don't know how finished your concept of this campaign is, but I'd like to suggest adding another 1-2 maps:

- have Roboke fight the Queen on one map. Since your overall map is quite detailled adding this might be difficult (my ideal scenario would look like this: water between you and the queen and a myriad of tunnels leading around the water towards her. She recruits Nagas, Archers, whatever water units you deem appropriate and then undead come out of the tunnels so you have 2 fronts). I think she deserves to be dealt with in one scenario of her own.
Spoiler:


- I love dungeoncrawling, so I'd welcome another dungeon-map to balance all the water-maps, maybe the Lich could flee deeper underground (this doesn't have to be depicted on the map) to...resurrect the dragon, make the volcano consume his attackers, use his knowledge of fire to something....I don't really, I'd love something in this direction but cant really formulate a good idea for it.



x42 wrote:Speaking of which, hows your WML? Can you edit campaigns are you familiar with git?


Sorry to say but I am a textbook critic: Know everything better but have never even tried doing it myself ;)
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Re: Roboke's Island

Postby x42 » January 16th, 2015, 10:51 pm

Just uploaded version 0.9.6..

This is a debug/devel version again. The start-level allows to directly jump to various scenarios. Useful for testing game-logic but useless for playtesting (missing recall lists, carried over gold etc).

The most prominent part is the rework of scenario 17 "Through the Hills"... more to come.

Code: Select all
2013-01-16 (0.9.6)                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
* no more random traits for Flandag & Bofur
* sc04 fix armor pickup (race typo)
* sc12b end-of-level experience + level up fix
* and related fix advancements (unstore -> trigger post_advance event)
* sc02 fix halo for Rosie (if selected)
* add various messages (sc10,12,14,16,22) to explain game (hints, etc)
* sc14: re-spawn patrols
* sc16: reduce difficulty (less seamonsters, favor Nagas, add turn limit)
* sc17: major rework (2 turn recruit, zone guadians, stoppers & batfix:)
* sc21: add some draugs.. delay side 5
* remove various excessive holy waters (sc21,23)
* add Chep as contributor to credits

2013-01-15 (0.9.5)
* various small tweaks to sc15 (items, shroud removal, gold)
* add a tunnel to sc16 to allow players to reach the map
* re-balance sc09 (off-shore)
* add various clarification notes (tunnels on southern shore, carryover gold)
* make sc10 less tedious (faster boat, one less village)
* sc5 interactive story (Q/A)
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Re: Roboke's Island

Postby x42 » January 16th, 2015, 11:27 pm

Agree on most points. Yes, there needs to be a more dialog interaction in the later parts.

"Screen Writing" is on top of the help-wanted list (that comes with the campaign doc/HELP_WANTED.txt) :D English not being my 1st lang slows me down there a lot.

I don't mind tweaking the flow of campaign either. Inserting another scenario to clarify things (e.g. 1:1 combat with interleaved dialog) is quite reasonable. re-ordering the "deceit" and adding another dungeon for fun, sure. But changing the concept/storyboard in general is not a good idea.

Chap wrote:(MAYBE introduce a pair of boots somewhere in the campaign that reduce movement costs over mountains?)


Another pair of speed-boots? heh. I started to remove a few of the indeed excessive items. but yes, more specific items (e.g. reduced cost on hills) are better than the current generic (e.g. increased movement) items.

I like your take on how Blackie discovers the connection between the Queen & undead and changes sides because of that.
So far there's only a well hidden rather unintelligible hint towards that end (move some unit onto the place where the queen vanishes in sc18).
Easiest way: The enemy leader of that scenario can provides Blackie with intel about the queen.

Spoiler:


Chap wrote:Sorry to say but I am a textbook critic: Know everything better but have never even tried doing it myself ;)


This is better in collaborations anyway. You're not encumbered by what is 'easily possible' programming wise, so you have a clear advantage there.
Just bear with me following up slowly. Writing is more time-consuming as reading/criticizing.
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Re: Roboke's Island

Postby Chep » January 17th, 2015, 3:04 am

like how you quote me as "Chap" - I mean it's true I am just some chap but the nick is Chep^^

so back to topic:

- Blackie & the storyline:
How about this: you move her first mission somewhere earlier in the campaign, have her find some fire arrow somewhere and add another one somewhere in the middle where she fights those lvl1/2-zombie/walking dead units and some skeletons and when she attacks one of the undead with them they remark something like "damn! that hurts! too bad we're not immune to/can't be killed by fire damage, like the master is" (adding this immunity to the Lich should fit thematically into the story, if I am not mistaken. Also several campaigns have this "boss has to be killed by certain unit/type of damage" so it is not completely novel)
This level would give her a) some time to level more than 1-2 units to lvl 2 where they can actually contribute later on but also make her Archers not completely useless by adding the Zombies (maybe even Ghouls). Maybe this could already be fulfilled by making her first mission a bit bigger but I think she deserves 2 solo-maps.
Spoiler:


- Queen:
Spoiler:



I might be able to help you a little with the screen-writing. Despite not being a native English-speaker myself my language skills are quite polished - well, at least when I'm sober.
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Re: Roboke's Island

Postby Tom_Of_Wesnoth » January 18th, 2015, 9:34 pm

Chep wrote:Despite not being a native English-speaker myself my language skills are quite polished - well, at least when I'm sober.


Haha how often is that?
If presented with the opportunity, I would take great pleasure in becoming a world ruler.
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Re: Roboke's Island

Postby Chep » January 18th, 2015, 10:41 pm

it happens. Occasionally. ;)
(when I am drunk I tend to speak French, 'cause I learnt the language that way/in that state)

Anyway, I noticed that I can (somewhat) see the dialogues if I open the campaign files in notepad. Is there a better option that doesn't require much work to see & edit them?^^

And any comments on my last suggestions, x42? (no pressure, I got time)
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Re: Roboke's Island

Postby x42 » January 19th, 2015, 1:48 am

Hi Chep,

Yeah sorry, I blame autocorrect to turning you into a chap :) Anyway, I'll be busy next week and it's unlikely I get to do more work on this campaign meanwhile.

I edit it with a text-editor (vim) on Linux and occasionally OSX. I don't know if there's a Wesnoth specific thingy for windows. but notepad should do fine (except the line-endings maybe).

But yes, if you just zip up the scenario folder, I can easily merge changes.
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Re: Roboke's Island

Postby n00bee » May 9th, 2015, 10:52 am

First: Great job, features, that were previously unknown to me (map-switching - really cool). Now some answers and a question:

(2) How many turns did each scenario take you? (just mention unusual large/low counts)


Some scenarios took me close to the turn limit - that is something new for me as I play wesnoth for several years now. I think, this is good as it is.

(3) Are there scenarios where you lack initial gold or others with excessive boni?


No.

(4) Do you think the story chapters are too verbose (in particular: 01, 05, 20)?


No.

(5) How clear did you find the dialog and the story? Did anything feel fictionally unnatural?


the story is well worked out until southern caves - that is where i got stuck (but only because i am greedy :P )

(6) How entertaining do you think the campaign is? (1: very boring - 10: I could not stop playing)


8 - which is very high for i am leaning towards criticism :D

(7) How well done did you find the map for the campaign?


Makes sense, might need some tweaks in artwork ...

(8) How difficult did you find the battles (overall and/or per scenario)? (1:easy - 10: very hard)


5. Some where really too easy, though i don't think this campaign is so much on battling but more for riddles and different gameplay (siwtching between caves and land - great idea)

(9) Did you solve the puzzles (10_Southern_Cliffs, 12b_Water_Colors, 16_Southern_Caves)? (1: way too easy - 10: too hard, got stuck)


Well, i am ashamed to say that i found everything without problems, but i got stuck for the cloak in the southern caves. I even found the second lever, but as often as i replay the scenario, I am too stupid to find a way to the cloak. That is why I don't go on with other scenarios. Spoiler? :?

(10) What were your major challenges in completing the campaign?


see above

(11) What is the most annoying [missing] feature that should be fixed/implemented next?


I think it is good as it is so far.

I play the latest version.
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Re: Roboke's Island

Postby x42 » May 9th, 2015, 12:30 pm

n00bee wrote:First: Great job, features, that were previously unknown to me (map-switching - really cool).


Cheers! That's very appreciated feedback.

n00bee wrote:Well, i am ashamed to say that i found everything without problems, but i got stuck for the cloak in the southern caves. I even found the second lever, but as often as i replay the scenario, I am too stupid to find a way to the cloak. That is why I don't go on with other scenarios. Spoiler? :?


Curious. how do you know it's there in the first place :) It's a well kept secret for the thorough explorer (and if you find it, there'll be also an explanation later in the story how it ended up there).

Spoiler:


n00bee wrote:
(8) How difficult did you find the battles (overall and/or per scenario)? (1:easy - 10: very hard)

5. Some where really too easy, though i don't think this campaign is so much on battling but more for riddles and different gameplay (siwtching between caves and land - great idea)


Do you remember which ones in particular? Would you mind suggesting where there's still an unbalance?




PS.While I'm here: I started to add a few of Chep's suggestions but next update will probably not happen until the summer holidays. I'm currently swamped with work.
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Re: Roboke's Island

Postby n00bee » May 9th, 2015, 6:06 pm

Curious. how do you know it's there in the first place :) It's a well kept secret for the thorough explorer (and if you find it, there'll be also an explanation later in the story how it ended up there).


first time i discovered it, i think, while hitting the 2nd lever. but may be, i just didn't watch these corner of the map before. I tried to get it without success, so i searched the forums, found this thread. I learnt that there should be a way there as some1 wrote he'd found it. Afterwards, when i replayed the scenario, i think it occured after the 4th turn without a special trigger.

@work: I don't know exactly why, but that sounds familiar :P
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Re: Roboke's Island

Postby vasek2 » July 27th, 2015, 11:04 am

Hey guys, maybe I am crazy, but I cannot find the second part of map (I got the first and third one), all dwarfs villages checked but without success, where is it? Help please, I wanna finish this beautiful part.

Thanks
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