The Sojournings of Grog

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The Sojournings of Grog

Postby Eros » December 2nd, 2010, 2:36 pm

OK, this is the feedback thread for "The Sojournings of Grog". Scenario development goes in this thread but could all feedback please be posted here?

We are aiming for a 3.0 release for the 1.9.x series. The 3.0 release will be when we think the campaign is "done". Though this is a big undertaking we are nearly there and we hope to be releasing it shortly. We would really like feedback to help us with this.

Feedback
We would greatly appreciate feedback about the campaign so let me add the normal 10 questions

1. What version of BfW did you play this campaign on?
2. What version of TSoG did you play?
3. What difficulty level did you select to play the campaign on? (easy/normal/hard)
4. How difficult did you find the campaign/scenario? (1-10)
5. How clear did you find the objectives on the campaign/scenario? (1-10)
6. What aspect of the campaign needs the most work? (dialog, unit images, etc.)
7. Which part of the campaign did you like? (part-1/part-2)
8. How do you like the story on this campaign? (1-10)
9. Do you have any additional comments?
10. What was your impression when you finished the campaign? (achievement, weariness, sadness, etc.)

Walkthrough (Incomplete)
(<map> ... </map> marks a basic description of the map)

(<developer> ... </developer> marks notes for developers)

Prologue (S1)
-------------

This scenario is story only.
NB: The holy water is best given to the fighter.


Those Sand Strewn Beaches (A0)
-----------------------------

<map>
Merfolk start in deep water to the NW.
To the NE is a dubious district containing nasties.
SW is a shallow beach with a large quantity of shallow water.
A Naga castle guards the SE deep water fjord with the deep water running directly up to the shore.
The destination signpost lies on the southern map edge.
</map>

Objectives: move Grog to the sign post on the southern border.

This scenario effectively has two branches. You can either run directly down onto the shore or you can land the ship on the deeper fjord to the SE. If you land on the beach there will be tentacles and mudcrawlers waiting for you. If however you land on the grass humans will come out of the houses. The moment either the mudcrawlers have appeared or the humans the other event will not be fired. If you kill the humans a friendly mudcrawler joins you. If you do the beach route (which is slightly easier) and kill all the mudcrawlers you get a camaflage ring.
Killing the Naga leader gives you a small gold boost. There is nothing in the temple (though if you visit the temple before you kill the Naga you get a bigger bonus).

NB: You wont be able to recruit for another two scenarios so use your elves wisely. (The surviving mermen leave you at the end of this scenario)

<developer>This scenario is essentially complete.</developer>


The Long Way Home (A1)
----------------------

<map>
Desert. Road runs from N to S.
There is a bandit castle near the suthern end and there is an oasis in the middle.
The signpost is on the southern border.
</map>

Objectives: move Grog to the sign post on the southern border.

There are bandits guarding the middle oasis and the main bandit leader recruits from a castle in the south. Elyssa is found by moving your hunter as far as it can go along the path. (If you don't find Elyssa she joins you at the end) There is no general strategy to this scenario other than try to keep the elves alive because you shall need them for the next scenario as well.

NB: Dont forget the magical sword you get when you kill the Bandit!

<developer>This scenario is not very smooth. Elyssa is found to early and is generally a bit jerky.</developer>


Homecoming (A2-1)
-----------------

<map>
Entrance to caves in NW. A entrance is infront with a road that orig ran all the way through the mountains which has been blocked half way along.
There is a dwarvish castle to the north of the path and a main path to the south. Behind the dwarvish castle is a secret tunnel that eventually joins up with the main path at Grog's home.
</map>

Objectives: Find Grog's home and then kill everything that's there.

Because you still cant recruit this scenario is fairly easy. Just follow the suggestions that you are given in the dialog.
NB: If you do attack the dwarves there is a secret tunnel behind their castle that acts as a short-cut.

<developer>Apart from the lava patch and balance this scenario is complete.</developer>


A Doubtful Alliance (A2-2)
--------------------------

<map>
The main road leads south to a entrance to the caves. There is a large undead castle in the entrance. The dwarves are to the west.
</map>

Objectives: Explore and then kill the dwarves.

You can recruit now so do it! Once you have found the undead recruit a load of Troll Whelps. Hang back a bit and let the undead take the battering from the dwarves and then use you whelps to grab the cheap experience. You want to upgrade as many units to level two as possible for the next scenario.

<developer>This scenario is essentially complete.</developer>


First Contact (A3)
------------------

<map>
You start infront of a large castle underground. There is a path extending away behind you over a bridge to the gate of the lich's fortress.
</map>

Objectives: Escape ths lich.

This scenario can be a bit tricky but take heart! When the enemy kills any of your units other than Grog and Elyssa they are "captured". When you kill the "captor" They are released with 50% hitpoints. Use this to your advantage.
On the first turn after all the intro dialog try to kill/slow as many Draugs as you can but make sure you are moving south. Try to keep up a wall all the way down otherwise he will ZoC your units. Once you reach the bridge you will meet more undead. These will be mostly L1 but they won't be wounded. Try to kill them as quickly as possible but be careful of the Chocobone's. Once you have destroyed the bridge go south as quickly as possible to escape the drakes. Moving a unit through the exit will win the scenario.

<developer>The code for the enemy catching your units is not to good, otherwise this scenario is essentially complete.</developer>


Siege Perilous (A4)
-------------------

Objectives: Return to Grog's village, and then survive until tunnel is opened.

<note>The map for this is being redone which will neccessitate redoing this part of the walkthrough.</note>

You start in the desert in the south with an entrance to the caves just in front of you. Procede north as fast as possible taking out the bats on the way. The moment you find Krunk start recruiting with him. This scenario is best played by lining the banks of the river and allowing the undead to waste n your impact attack. It is best to try and upgrade as many L1s as possible in this scenario rather than trying to get a few high L3s. Use Grog's inspire trait as well as the shaman's shields trait to maximum advantage. The retreat is easy as long as it is ordered.

<developer>This scenario is having a new map. Apart from that it is essentially complete.</developer>


The Deep Levels (A5)
--------------------

Objectives: Get out of the tunnels alive, and then kill all orcs.

<note>The map for this is being redone which will neccessitate redoing this part of the walkthrough.</note>

There is not much strategy to this scenario. Just don't get too spread out along the tunnels, dont get Elyssa poisoned, and dont over recruit. There is no difference between the two tunnels.

<developer>This scenario is having a new map. Apart from that it is essentially complete.</developer>

Every Troll to do His Duty (A6)
-------------------------------

Objectives: Kill Yetis and Orcs.

This scenario is fairly easy. Hange backa bit so the orcs go to the effort of killing the Yetis and then nip in and finish of the orcs. Your allies aren't much of a problem. They will lose all their units but they are not likely to die. The first orc leader to die drops a ring that gives you two extra MP. There will be a number of running scenarios comming up so give it to either Grog or Elyssa.

<developer>This scenario is essentially complete.</developer>

Nemesis (A7)
------------

Objectives: Kill the Lich.

Slow and steady wins this one though it helps if you can knock out the nearest two Draugs ASAP, otherwise you get swamped. That tunnel is very important. If you have the gryphons send 3-5 down it if not there are other entrances for foot units. send Elyssa and/or a couple of trolls. There are a number of secret tunnels and easter-eggs in this scenario. When you get to his castle bleed of his stronger units from the walls with warriors and then get grunts to pick up the damage. Hey Presto! you have finished part one of TSoG!

<developer>This scenario is essentially complete.</developer>
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Re: The Sojournings of Grog

Postby fenny » December 22nd, 2010, 10:31 pm

I played The Sojournings of Grog with Wesnoth 1.8.2 in the newest version available. I played it also in previous versions. I used medium difficulty.

I was near the end of the campaign when i had to start from the beginning because in the newest version the gryphon unit was changed and i couldn't load my savegame anymore.

First, i found it more easy as in previous versions i played, and there were some large maps in previous versions which are now cut in pieces. I liked this large maps, for example the one with Grogs home and the way to the undead camp where the fight against the dwarfs starts.

For the overall difficulty i would say 4 or 5. It's no problem to come through, but i try to loose as less units as possible, and in the last scenarios there will be some casualties.

I like the first part more than the second, the final fight angainst the lich in this very nice underground map is my favourite scenario. I like also the special units like the loyal mudcrawler and the albino troll. When there is more than one path, i usually split my units, even when it's bad strategy, but i'm curious and i want to see the whole map.
I give Elyssa the sword, and as a gold mage with it she is a very strong unit with teleport ability that is very useful in this campaign.
I had a problem with the scenario where you have to defend Grogs home till the escape door opens. The door opened later as was said in the objective description. First i thought it was my fault, because some turns in advance i retreated to the door and left the castle undefended, so it got occupied by the undead. But the door opened just some turns later.
In the scenario with the lava beasts, it took some time till the enemies appeared. In previous versions the enemies appeared when a unit entered the great lava hall, now i could walk with my units to the middle with this blue crystals before the enemies appeared. But i think that is intended.

In the second part there is one scenario where you have to fight against some dwarfs in the desert as long as possible. I don't like this scenario, it seems impossible to kill all the dwarfs and just waiting and defending is a bit boring. There should be some reward for the time you hold out, like some gold for defending 20 turns or 30 turns.
In the scenario where you have to fight the orc leaders, i think it is the next one, i attack the first orc leader right from the start and use his castle for fighting the next one. In previous versions when i had killed all the orcs, in my starting cave the dwarfs appeared. This wasn't the case this time. I'm not sure, if this was changed, or if i was just quicker with killing the orcs and getting to the signpost before the event would have appeared.
There is one scenario i find to easy now, the one with the two saurian leaders. I walked straight to the first one and managed to kill him in the first two or three turns. I could then use his castle and fight the other one quite comfortably. Otherwise the scenario with the cactuses i found very hard. I had just one surviving fencer with my leader - but it was the first time i played it and i had no strategy for it.
Normally i don't like playing four or five sides myself so in the scenario with the isle in the middle and dragons in the north and orcs in the south i let the ai play my allies, but the ai was so stupid i started again and played the other parties myself. I encountered that javelineers are very good against drakes. In the last scenario i let the ai play the allies, and it worked fine.

I'm more a player than a reader, so i don't say anything about the story. The objectives are clear and the final fights are good.
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Re: The Sojournings of Grog

Postby Elvish_Hunter » December 23rd, 2010, 9:58 am

fenny wrote:I played The Sojournings of Grog with Wesnoth 1.8.2 in the newest version available. I played it also in previous versions. I used medium difficulty.
First of all, thanks for playing. I'm not longer maintaining the 1.8 version, because I moved to the 1.9 series, and here I'm adding the difficult levels and some features that cannot be backported (Lua code).
fenny wrote:I was near the end of the campaign when i had to start from the beginning because in the newest version the gryphon unit was changed and i couldn't load my savegame anymore.
That change happened a long time ago.
fenny wrote:First, i found it more easy as in previous versions i played, and there were some large maps in previous versions which are now cut in pieces. I liked this large maps, for example the one with Grogs home and the way to the undead camp where the fight against the dwarfs starts.
We decided to split the scenario in two, because that tunnel was sort of boring, forcing 1-on-1 fighting.
fenny wrote:I like the first part more than the second, the final fight angainst the lich in this very nice underground map is my favourite scenario. I like also the special units like the loyal mudcrawler and the albino troll.
Thanks. The White Troll was originally a unit made for an abandoned campaign by the Wesnoth Italian Forum.
fenny wrote:I give Elyssa the sword, and as a gold mage with it she is a very strong unit with teleport ability that is very useful in this campaign.
The reason why I added the Gold Mage was that many players (including me) chosen the advancement to Arch Mage because she could then level up to 4. Having the Gold Mage, there is a strategic choice: more hitpoints and fire power, or more movement and resistances?
fenny wrote:I had a problem with the scenario where you have to defend Grogs home till the escape door opens. The door opened later as was said in the objective description.
This is corrected on the 1.9 series.
fenny wrote:In the scenario with the lava beasts, it took some time till the enemies appeared. In previous versions the enemies appeared when a unit entered the great lava hall, now i could walk with my units to the middle with this blue crystals before the enemies appeared. But i think that is intended.
Yes, it is intended.
fenny wrote:In the second part there is one scenario where you have to fight against some dwarfs in the desert as long as possible. I don't like this scenario, it seems impossible to kill all the dwarfs and just waiting and defending is a bit boring. There should be some reward for the time you hold out, like some gold for defending 20 turns or 30 turns.
Actually, there is a reward: the Dwarves show up later in the next scenario. It's a bit like Pebbles in the Flood in The South Guard. To make it less boring I can shorten the time required to the Dwarvish Rune Lord to appear, and make it clear about such bonus. And because it's almost impossible to kill him, I can add back the {FORCE_CHANCHE_TO_HIT} macro, to make it sure that he cannot be killed.
fenny wrote:There is one scenario i find to easy now, the one with the two saurian leaders. I walked straight to the first one and managed to kill him in the first two or three turns. I could then use his castle and fight the other one quite comfortably. Otherwise the scenario with the cactuses i found very hard. I had just one surviving fencer with my leader - but it was the first time i played it and i had no strategy for it.
Maybe I should give the second Saurian more gold. And about the Cactose/Fencer scenario, this is played if you lost Ormron; the strategy is to stay in the small forest, where your Fencers have 70% defense.
fenny wrote:Normally i don't like playing four or five sides myself so in the scenario with the isle in the middle and dragons in the north and orcs in the south i let the ai play my allies, but the ai was so stupid i started again and played the other parties myself. I encountered that javelineers are very good against drakes. In the last scenario i let the ai play the allies, and it worked fine.
Yes, this is why such option was added. Sooner or later, I should try to understand the new 1.8 AI syntax, to see if I can make it smarter.
fenny wrote:I'm more a player than a reader, so i don't say anything about the story. The objectives are clear and the final fights are good.
Thanks again! :)
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Re: The Sojournings of Grog

Postby taptap » October 16th, 2011, 12:02 pm

First Contact:

Please don't automatically recall an elf in first contact, even if he is of a higher level than my remaining trolls. Even with all the changes in the floor elves are just not fast enough to run away in caves, the wraithes mercilessly took him at the bridge and because of the chasm you can't shield units there. Especially as the desert elves are so precious (not recruitable) in the campaign and I managed without elven losses until this point.

Epic scenario. The first run scenario where I really never thought "maybe I can defend here or there, but the objectives don't allow it".

Troll's duty:

If you make them chaotic, you need not call footpads "peasant youth".

Leave at least a bodyguard with the orc leaders. After seeing the time limit (16 moves on warrior/hard) I just overrecruited: all the elves and all level 3 troll warriors, shamans and Krunk + 1-2 units I wanted to level (resilient fencer, thief). I ended levelling one of the elves and the thief and on turn 12(!), losing only the spearman. The orcs didn't cover their rear when taking out the yetis. The allies are surprisingly effective against level2 wolves even if they have only 100 gold each. Elyssa really shines on this map (Gold mage).
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Re: The Sojournings of Grog

Postby Elvish_Hunter » October 16th, 2011, 4:23 pm

taptap wrote:Please don't automatically recall an elf in first contact, even if he is of a higher level than my remaining trolls. Even with all the changes in the floor elves are just not fast enough to run away in caves, the wraithes mercilessly took him at the bridge and because of the chasm you can't shield units there. Especially as the desert elves are so precious (not recruitable) in the campaign and I managed without elven losses until this point.
It will be interesting to read Eros' opinion. For me, there isn't any problem in changing this.
taptap wrote:Epic scenario. The first run scenario where I really never thought "maybe I can defend here or there, but the objectives don't allow it".
Thanks. :)
taptap wrote:If you make them chaotic, you need not call footpads "peasant youth".
Again, I'd like to hear Eros' opinion, but for me is fine to use standard Poachers, Thugs and Footpads.
taptap wrote:Leave at least a bodyguard with the orc leaders.
Do you mean "not all Orcish units should go and attack the Yetis" ? The AI behaviour isn't so easy to control, and less units attacking the Yetis will mean:
- you'll have to kill more Orcs
- perhaps the Yetis will have more HP when you attack them
and both things may unbalance the scenario.
taptap wrote:Elyssa really shines on this map (Gold mage).
One of the reasons why I added the Gold Mage path was that several players (including me) chosen the Arch Mage path, because in a so long campaign is useful being able to go up to level 4. This added a strategic chioce: it's better to have more HP and firepower, or more movement, resistance and teleport? I'm glad that you liked it. :wink:
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Re: The Sojournings of Grog

Postby taptap » October 16th, 2011, 10:50 pm

Hi, thanks for the instant reply.

Elyssa:

Well, it is a bit strange if you had her as Great Mage in UtbS, but in the cave scenarios with villages I would honestly consider Silver Mage without add-on over Great Mage I guess. As Gold Mage + add-ons she is nearly overpowered (110% resistence against fire and cold, 70% against arcane - I would have preferred Grog taking the add-on but he was at the other end of the map) or say a specialised lich assassin...

First contact:

Ah, there was another chance to get the prisoners back. So, it isn't a problem after all. Only thing I would change is add a bit randomizing to the "earthquake damage" Elyssa does in the beginning.

I did recruit at the keep of the violett skeleton. This allows you to recruit units that you are supposed to keep alive in all other scenarios, but here they may die (didn't happen though). In the end my units are beamed out of the cave, however only four units from the starting crew were beamed out the rest stayed inside the cave while still commenting happily about the escape.

Troll's duty:

Well, the yetis were dead due to heavy crossbow-fire at turn 7 taking a number of wolves and grunts with them, turn 8 I killed the first orc leader, turn 12 the second. I got an early finish bonus in this level.

Maybe just flagging some villages for the orcs will change the level dramatically. (However if the orc isn't distracted and defends too well, it might be utterly impossible in 16 turns.)

Nemesis:

I forgot to explore the two entrances nearest to my keep, I was too busy taking out the first two leaders in time, later I never looked to this area again. I got the White mage anyway in the end, but since I only lost 3 units in First Contact there was one entrance with another shaman. This one is lost, it seems... I thought after clearing the mines and settling there my trolls may find him anyway? I would make all the prisoners show up in the end. Even though a third shaman on the recall list would be a big asset, because war banners are so awesome.

Bug: Elyssa is invincible against fire / cold (110%). However if a war banner stands next to her, the 50% cap of the war banner aura overrides her invincibility in the defense, this can be dangerous. There should be a fix in the war banner code that the 50% cap only applies if it was below 50% before adding 20%.

Feature: Giving the choice about picking up items is only useful if you have a clue what they are, as this easily leads to save-loading or spoiler reading you can as well give this information. I thought the green bottle is some additional HP so gave it to the shyde :)
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Re: The Sojournings of Grog

Postby Elvish_Hunter » October 19th, 2011, 8:21 am

taptap wrote:Well, it is a bit strange if you had her as Great Mage in UtbS
There is no way to keep track of the player's choices in UtBS, and re-use them in this campaign. Sure, in UtBS Elyssa is even allowed to die...
taptap wrote:Only thing I would change is add a bit randomizing to the "earthquake damage" Elyssa does in the beginning.
That damage is not randomized. It is supposed to leave enemy units with one third of their hitpoints.
taptap wrote:I did recruit at the keep of the violett skeleton.
I don't know if it was intentional. Perhaps I should disallow recruitment there.
taptap wrote:(However if the orc isn't distracted and defends too well, it might be utterly impossible in 16 turns.)
Exactly. :)
taptap wrote:I would make all the prisoners show up in the end.
An alternative may be to place all prisoners in a single cell, instead of having them scattered around the map. Your opinion?
taptap wrote: However if a war banner stands next to her, the 50% cap of the war banner aura overrides her invincibility in the defense, this can be dangerous. There should be a fix in the war banner code that the 50% cap only applies if it was below 50% before adding 20%.
I'll check this. Thank you for the report. :wink:
taptap wrote:Feature: Giving the choice about picking up items is only useful if you have a clue what they are, as this easily leads to save-loading or spoiler reading you can as well give this information. I thought the green bottle is some additional HP so gave it to the shyde :)
For this reason, I added a new style of item dialog. It can be seen in the Prologue, if you play on Easy or Medium on Wesnoth 1.9 series, and pick the Holy Water. So far, nobody told me if it was fine...
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Re: The Sojournings of Grog

Postby taptap » October 19th, 2011, 11:17 pm

taptap wrote:I did recruit at the keep of the violett skeleton.
I don't know if it was intentional. Perhaps I should disallow recruitment there.


Well, this did not stop me from running.

taptap wrote:I would make all the prisoners show up in the end.
An alternative may be to place all prisoners in a single cell, instead of having them scattered around the map. Your opinion?


I like the cells as they are, having one big cell might change the balance of the scenario according to where it would be. Having a whole keep of units at once can make a difference.

taptap wrote:Feature: Giving the choice about picking up items is only useful if you have a clue what they are, as this easily leads to save-loading or spoiler reading you can as well give this information. I thought the green bottle is some additional HP so gave it to the shyde :)
For this reason, I added a new style of item dialog. It can be seen in the Prologue, if you play on Easy or Medium on Wesnoth 1.9 series, and pick the Holy Water. So far, nobody told me if it was fine...


Can't say anything about it, as I play it in the highest level. (Looked at it, it looks fine.)
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Re: The Sojournings of Grog

Postby taptap » October 20th, 2011, 1:29 pm

South Gate: First level of the second part...

I was defending (first at the entrance, then going back to chokepoints granting the dwarves a single cave village) until move 24 pretty easily, but holding out any longer doesn't look promising and may endanger the loyal units or the warbanner that backs up the most exposed units. I have no idea whatsoever what is going to come next, but at the same time I want to know what the dwarves come up with next. Hmm, guess I am running instead of risking any loyals or my newly levelled trolls. But there really should be some dialog (sth. like "We should retreat now. The wall is nearly finished already.", "The wall is finished, just avoid unnecessary losses here. We will take back this cave soon enough."), I know I can always run, but I have no clue whether holding the gate for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 moves is a success or not. In fact, without having advice you feel like it should be possible to defend caves with chokepoints forever - you are playing trolls after all, have one of those amazing war banners, keep levelling and all that with still positive income...

Spoiler:


That the final screen after finishing shows Grog standing alone in the castle, while all the other units left is a bug, isn't it?
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Re: The Sojournings of Grog

Postby taptap » October 22nd, 2011, 1:39 am

Rearguard: Very nice scenario.

Waves and waves: Easy to waste money here, when in fact it isn't necessary. You can run without recruits at all. I expected a change in scenario objectives and recruited something for this reason. Ah, and I would change the names of the generals. Ah, I understand that moving in trolls isn't appreciated, but what about the fellow humans who were from the same group as Ormrod? (I would allow all human units into the city - because they all excl. Elyssa come from there, but noone else.)

Defense: Javelineers, Pikemen, Longbowmen and Lancers against drakes, Trolls against orcs. The warbanner doesn't shield allied units, while healing is to allied units too. Thank god I can play my allies, I can't believe the AI can defend the isle on hard. The move order is a little strange or maybe I am just not used to playing four tribes at once ... Doing well here has a direct influence on the final scenario because you play a human general with all the units from here on his recall list. And why are the orcs retreating (the dwarves?)? And why do I follow the dragons although I didn't defeat their leaders? There is something for the dialog to explain. And why are orcs and drakes allied, when the drakes were allies of the lich before, which the orcs were very eager to defeat? In fact this should be mentioned in the dialog throughout the second part, that dwarves and orcs respect the fact that the trolls killed the lich even if they are for obvious reasons still their enemies.

Flying above sands: Great scenario, I made it with only 5 griffons in total - and lost all those including the griffon leader in the final battle.

A powerful ballista: Nice.

Dragonbane: Finally a place to recall my troll army (well, at least most of them) and put them on more than 40% defense terrain. I didn't need the staff (only magic units was not really clear to me, trolls, griffons are pretty magical i thought, in the end I gave it to Ormrod but he wasn't fast enough to use it even once). In fact, I would drop it on hard, unnecessary. 3 inspired warbanners do enough cold damage to kill a dragon. And Grog did the final stroke :)

Lost all the griffons and the elves were nearly vanished, only beaming Elyssa in saved Nym, Kaleh, and a few units, but Zhul and all other recruits met Eloh. (Losses 8, kills 28) The problem is, that only expensive level 3 recruits are allowed so you have very few units to form a line and you nearly can't shield your units against mobile drake fighters, there is no way the AI could have saved Kaleh when I let it play. A little more sand at the beach head would be nice :) The naga were very powerful and kept Melusand busy until the end, they killed them one round before the dragon (Losses 6, kills 43). The human general had much more power, due to his recalls (level 3 and mostly level 2 for 20 gold each) only recruits were five more javelineers. The trolls had no problems at all and very few losses. When I finished on turn 20 only the easternmost drake was still alive.

Unlike Nemesis where upon coming close to the lich my western group was nearly broken by the reinforcements (drakes / levelled ghosts), that didn't intervene earlier, dragonbane was really only one huge wave by the drakes and after that their forces were spent. The main difficulty was keeping the elves alive, but after that was achieved at about turn 12 it still took ages to finish the scenario - although there was no doubt about the outcome at that point. The epilogue needs some work, didn't understand the sceptre of fire text, and while I appreciate prosperous trolls, why are only few dwarves left - did they proceed killing dwarves after that? And why is it important for Grog to be rich, seems so petty and so cliché, as he starts as a famous troll hero in scenario 1 and must be living legend after dragonbane.

In the tribe table, I should be Grog but I am listed as Hazdrubal since Defense I believe.

In general the second part was easier (highest difficulty) than the first. I very much liked the defending, running and retreating scenarios. Flying over sands was my favourite scenario in the second part (and probably the scenario I played worst with only 5 griffons surviving).
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Re: The Sojournings of Grog

Postby Elvish_Hunter » October 22nd, 2011, 6:56 pm

taptap wrote:Hmm, guess I am running instead of risking any loyals or my newly levelled trolls. But there really should be some dialog (sth. like "We should retreat now. The wall is nearly finished already.", "The wall is finished, just avoid unnecessary losses here. We will take back this cave soon enough."), I know I can always run, but I have no clue whether holding the gate for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 moves is a success or not.
Well, the real purpose of this level is allow the player gaining experience, and delay the Dwarves' arrival in the next level.
taptap wrote:Is it really necessary to kill the level1 dwarves in a way suitable for an angry necromancer? I would have levelled two units at that point, and suddenly the killable units were destroyed between their move and my move... Very tomato. And if he can kill units like this, why does he do it with his own but not with my units? Just some turns earlier the arcanister was complaining that the new recruited units shouldn't be wasted like that. It really feels like a shortcut to avoid more complicated coding / better balancing.
The reason originally stated by Eros in the scenario comments was to remove those L1 units from the way of L2 ones.
taptap wrote:The best way would be to trigger their retreat and somehow enable them to go out, leaving them enough space to do so
In fact, you are suggesting that the Arcanister should say something like "Flee, you cowards!", and the L1 units should move to the border of the map, and then disappear. Am I right?
taptap wrote:That the final screen after finishing shows Grog standing alone in the castle, while all the other units left is a bug, isn't it?
That must be a leftover of 1.6, when multiple leaders weren't supported. Since it was harmless, I left it the way it is. :P
taptap wrote:Ah, and I would change the names of the generals.
Because they aren't so much Wesnothian, right? Well, you can propose some new names, if you like - otherwise I can pick them from the RNG name list.
taptap wrote:And why are the orcs retreating (the dwarves?)?
They just don't want to lose more units.
taptap wrote:And why do I follow the dragons although I didn't defeat their leaders?
Because your objective is to defeat the leader of all these Drakes.
taptap wrote:In fact this should be mentioned in the dialog throughout the second part, that dwarves and orcs respect the fact that the trolls killed the lich even if they are for obvious reasons still their enemies.
When Daravel will remake the dialogues, I'll give him your suggestion.
taptap wrote:(only magic units was not really clear to me, trolls, griffons are pretty magical i thought, in the end I gave it to Ormrod but he wasn't fast enough to use it even once).
A message like "Only units capable of handle magic can pick this staff" sounds fine?
taptap wrote:The problem is, that only expensive level 3 recruits are allowed so you have very few units to form a line and you nearly can't shield your units against mobile drake fighters, there is no way the AI could have saved Kaleh when I let it play. A little more sand at the beach head would be nice :)
Will be a good solution to allow recruit also of L2 units?
taptap wrote:The epilogue needs some work
Again, that's a work for Daravel.
taptap wrote:In the tribe table, I should be Grog but I am listed as Hazdrubal since Defense I believe.
I never noticed this. A savegame to check may be useful.
Thanks for playing the campaign, and for all your comments and suggestions! :wink:
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Re: The Sojournings of Grog

Postby taptap » October 22nd, 2011, 10:29 pm

Well, the real purpose of this level is allow the player gaining experience, and delay the Dwarves' arrival in the next level.


Yes, but it isn't clear what is a success. As holding out longer than move 24 has no effects (well, I hold only to move 27, I didn't want the berserkers to kill my freshly levelled units) There can be a little dialog when the arcanister is starting to recruit berserkers only.

The reason originally stated by Eros in the scenario comments was to remove those L1 units from the way of L2 ones.


The reason is clear. The way it is done is problematic. Even simply retreating them (either around their castles or at some designated areas in front of the gates - my favourite - or even removing them from the map after reaching their castle or the boarder) starting some turns before 24 and adding some dialog "the trolls are stronger than expected, how can we ever break their defenses, retreat" something that lures the player in security and makes you feel you won... and just then when the gates aren't clogged with level 1 units anymore start recruiting berserkers and the ogre or the griffon leader give a hint, that further resistence is futile, so that the player feels ok about retreating.

They just don't want to lose more units.


Yes, very understandable - but the dialog should reflect this. Not a simple "fall back", but "fall back, we can't defeat these trolls like this, our losses are too high". Also there should be motivation that orcs and drakes are allied in this scenario - you don't have to change this, but the orcs let me kill a big army of them because they were busy defeating some allies of the lich (the yetis), now they are suddenly allied with another former ally of the lich.

In Defense it is also not clear to me, why surviving for 18 turns is decisive - ok at this point likely the opponent has lost most of his units, but there is no in game reason like reinforcements that you have to hold out exactly 18 turns. I would change it to a "defend the city" and trigger the win when the opponents total unit value*hp percentage falls under a certain percentage of yours (say if they have only half as much units combined, there is no way they still can proceed with a siege) and on the condition that there is none of their units in the city.

Because your objective is to defeat the leader of all these Drakes.


Yes, but I didn't even defeat those in front of my city - did the drakes retreat as well, I never read anything about it, it was just the orcs saying something. (Explanation needed between scenarios or in dialog, maybe one when the drake leaders were still alive and another one when they are dead .)

A message like "Only units capable of handle magic can pick this staff" sounds fine?


Spellcasters (mages and shamans)? And picking it up with a desert star (from the elven group I had from scenario 1 of the first part) didn't work - which really made me wonder what a magic unit might be. In fact, I believe the staff leads to overreliance on Elyssa with her 110% fire resistence, just drop it, at least on hard. With correct play I could have had 4 warbanners, I had only 3 but this was way enough to kill the dragon (they have 50% fire resistence next to each other and do cold damage). I didn't even need to mobilise Elyssa or Krunk, if anything it was too easy not too hard and I gave the final stroke to Grog as he is the hero of the campaign not Elyssa.

Will be a good solution to allow recruit also of L2 units?


Depends on the price of the units (I don't know l2 prices very well). It definitely will change the balance (further in favour of the player) if their is no downside to it - say less money but still enough to recruit more, but weaker units than I could recruit before - it doesn't matter for the human general, he has cheap recalls and can recruit two important L2 - lancers and javelineers, isn't decisive for the merfolk (they have all the units you levelled in the level before - nearly all l2 in my case), but will make a huge difference for the elves.

Or have it the same amount of money, allowing l2 as well, which makes the elves stronger, but make the dragons units decide to focus on one side instead of splitting troops evenly, at least as long as the situation allows it. So you have one side facing bigger pressure and your only effective way to relieve them is to make progress elsewhere. Would make this level more interesting.

Thumbs up for Grog and his warbanners. Thumbs up for everyone involved in this campaign.
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Re: The Sojournings of Grog

Postby Lord-Knightmare » November 10th, 2011, 10:48 am

Played the Campaign in Easy Difficulty.
Awesome campaign, but had only one problem.
The scenario where you fight the Khalifate said that I could get a Dust Devil via right click, every turn, but where's the option for this?
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Re: The Sojournings of Grog

Postby Stellarnight » November 12th, 2011, 8:30 am

1. What version of BfW did you play this campaign on? 1.9.10
2. What version of TSoG did you play? The version as of 08/11/11
3. What difficulty level did you select to play the campaign on? (easy/normal/hard) Normal
4. How difficult did you find the campaign/scenario? (1-10) 7. Everything was pretty okay til Nemesis. It was a huge spike in difficulty with the soulless units decimating my numbers and adding them to their own. The persistent Wraiths were also the cause of numerous restarts. Lost plenty of veterans but it was an epic battle as i juggle Elyssa back and forth to fry all opposition. I didnt expect Drakes but they were more of a nuisance then a threat. When i completed the scenario, i was really satisfied so thank you for making such a challenging mission=)

5. How clear did you find the objectives on the campaign/scenario? (1-10) 8. South Gate was somewhat ambiguous with the " hold out as long as you can " objective. I was trying to hold out for as long as possible just to see if anything would happened. I think this could be abit overwhelming for new players of Wesnoth as they would not have a clear idea of when would be a good idea to retreat but the moment i saw those damn ulfserkers being mass produced, i knew it was time to fall back. I enjoyed it every much. One interesting point is that they dont seem too interested in attacking the western flank. Though the part where the runemaster started frying his own troops was a shock to me. It was just unexpected "Dwarfvish behavior". It was more of what i would expect a lich to do but a Dwarf? Maybe the story would explain this:P

6. What aspect of the campaign needs the most work? (dialog, unit images, etc.) My Ornom(the white mage) died so it was kind of strange for him to participate in the aftermath dialogue. Perhaps have him retreat when he gets ko-ed.

7. Which part of the campaign did you like? (part-1/part-2) Done part 1. Brilliant. Would start Part 2.
8. How do you like the story on this campaign? (1-10) 9. I was mesmerised by the story. Maybe i have a soft spot for the big troll which aided me greatly in UtBS.
9. Do you have any additional comments? Nopes
10. What was your impression when you finished the campaign? (achievement, weariness, sadness, etc.) EPIC
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Re: The Sojournings of Grog

Postby Elvish_Hunter » November 12th, 2011, 9:44 am

Lord-Knightmare wrote:The scenario where you fight the Khalifate said that I could get a Dust Devil via right click, every turn, but where's the option for this?
The optio shows only if you meet all the conditions, that are:
  • You have Elyssa
  • You have less than 3 Dust Devils on the map
  • You did not already summoned one in the same turn
When you first meet her, she automatically summons one, so the third condition isn't met.
Stellarnight wrote:6. What aspect of the campaign needs the most work? (dialog, unit images, etc.) My Ornom(the white mage) died so it was kind of strange for him to participate in the aftermath dialogue. Perhaps have him retreat when he gets ko-ed.
Thank you for the feedback. Can you send me a replay? It will be useful to fix this.
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