Brave Wings

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Re: Brave Wings

Postby SkyOne » June 22nd, 2010, 10:01 am

boru wrote:I thought I posted this a while back .. I guess I didn't .. hope you'll find it helpful ..

Thanks, boru. Of course, it is helpful, and you are cool.:smile: I was finally able to receive a new monitor from the factory just today (actually yesterday now) after frustrating for a month.
boru wrote:On recruiting drake fighters, I would say there are several scenarios where these guys would have been very helpful. It’s up to you, of course, but I would suggest the first and last consideration should be whether you’re making the campaign more fun or less. It’s possible some players might enjoy it because it’s more of a challenge, but in my opinion it was an unnecessary restriction. So unless there is some balance issue I am not aware of, I would do away with it.

Yes, I forgot to say that the limited recruitment of Drake Fighter made the unit append an extra value. I mean that it makes Drake Fighter more precious in the game. That was another reason why it had been limited to be recruited, but I changed it on the new edition. Both you and Anon said the same thing, so I should follow it.:smile:
boru wrote:Thunderthrow: I noticed if you rescue Montas before destroying the Thunderthrow, you still get a message that Thunderthrow is destroyed. It doesn’t affect anything, but the message ought to be different.

Oh, I thought I had fixed it already. Thanks, I will fix it on the next edition.
boru wrote:Orcish Newport: This one is fine, but it’s the third time we have a map with a big river in the middle and two enemies and one army of computer-controlled allies. Maybe I’m being overly critical, but I think it could be a bit more. Maybe we could learn something new about your supporting cast, Kasii or Angiddon. Maybe these orcs are connected to the orcs fought against in Thunderthrow, the last remnants of the hardliners who refuse to surrender. The Merman says the orcs are stirring up the local monsters, so maybe they stir up some beast which everyone has to fight.

Thanks. This will be my next assignment. I will think the dialogs, and probably change the recruitment list of side=4. Goblin Rouser might be Giant Scorpion, because I have used Goblins on the new scenario. But not sure for Yetis. (possibly a good idea to use them though)
boru wrote:Melphine’s Home Seas: Some really good tough battles. I think I would like to know a bit more about Ikateus as a ruler, so that his transformation will have more dramatic impact. I like the ghost ships.

Sounds good! I will work on it.
boru wrote:Legend of a Dragon: This one’s especially hard. We just ended a hard campaign, so two hard ones in a row magnifies the difficulty. Our heroes have to fight for a keep, then the strongest healer is taken away. Also we have to protect two undead allies who have no possible chance of standing up against the high level foes on the main island. On the other hand, it’s the last battle so it does not matter if your Inferno Drakes go out in a blaze of glory, so long as they take some draugs and banebows with them.

About Melphine’s death: I think this is a good choice for your story (although of course it is sad). However, I would have liked to see her succeed first, and transform Eagi-Nyess and Orofarnië back to normal before she is destroyed. Maybe on easy games, both heroes are restored, on normal, one is restored, and on hard games, everyone is attacked by sea yetis. But as it is now, it’s too risky to do anything with these guys, which is less fun.

Okay, you are right. That must be more fun to play if Eagi-Nyess and Orofarnië back to normal, then battle with the other heros. Let me think about it for a while because changing to it needs a slight change of the set up. I need a more clear reason why Kragash Varg assassins just Mélphine after her succeed. It has been already unreasonable a little bit that Kragash Varg kills her from a far distance. Not to kill her on the campaign is another way, but that makes Wyngilla's transformation unreasonable.

I may try that she throws the holy water to Eagi-Nyess when she is dying, then Eagi-Nyess brings it to Orofarnië by himself, because he can fly at the time. Does it make sense?
boru wrote:By the way, this time I played on medium and started the final scenario with 280 gold. The Sword Drake/Battler is my favorite custom unit, but I liked all the custom units.

Thank you so much. The idea of the melee-attack animations of Sword Drake/Battler is from a Samurai Soldier, called Zato-ichi, who is a blind swordsman in the 60's movies. I am glad to hear you like them.:smile:


Because of your feedbacks, the first half of the campaign became better. I can start working on the second half.
Many thanks to you.:smile:
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Re: Brave Wings

Postby boru » June 22nd, 2010, 4:09 pm

SkyOne wrote:Thanks, boru. Of course, it is helpful, and you are cool.:smile:

aww thanks!
SkyOne wrote:I may try that she throws the holy water to Eagi-Nyess when she is dying, then Eagi-Nyess brings it to Orofarnië by himself, because he can fly at the time. Does it make sense?

Yes. I think it will give her death more meaning if she succeeds.
SkyOne wrote:Thank you so much. The idea of the melee-attack animations of Sword Drake/Battler is from a Samurai Soldier, called Zato-ichi, who is a blind swordsman in the 60's movies. I am glad to hear you like them.:smile:

The samurai metaphor really works best for the drakes, because of their lawful nature. It never really makes sense with orcs, goblins, or other chaotic races, maybe they could wear some samurai styled armor for a different flavor, but there is so much more to the samurai than weapons and armor.
SkyOne wrote:Because of your feedbacks, the first half of the campaign became better. I can start working on the second half.
Many thanks to you.:smile:

Glad to help, and welcome back.
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Re: Brave Wings

Postby SkyOne » July 10th, 2010, 2:44 am

Thanks again, boru.

I updated Version 0.7.4 by following your feedback.
I added a couple of Yetis on scenario Orcish Newport, and Eagi-Nyess and Orofarnië will be back to normal when they pick up the holy water on scenario Legend of a Dragon. AI for the ally-side on Orcish Newport works a bit weird, but the game is more enjoyable now.

boru wrote:The samurai metaphor really works best for the drakes, because of their lawful nature. It never really makes sense with orcs, goblins, or other chaotic races, maybe they could wear some samurai styled armor for a different flavor, but there is so much more to the samurai than weapons and armor.

Yes, yes. I actually tried to put some samurai styled armor to Sword Drake/Battler, but it was too hard to draw for me, and a bit weird because they have wings. It was fun though if they wear it.:smile:

boru wrote:Glad to help, and welcome back.

Thank you! :smile:
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Re: Brave Wings

Postby genever » July 10th, 2010, 4:21 am

The Questions:

1. What version of Battle for Wesnoth did you play? 1.8.1

2. What version of Brave Wings (or the scenario) did you play? 0.7.3

3. What difficulty level did you select to play the campaign? (easy/normal/hard) Easy

4. How difficult did you find the scenario or the campaign? (1-10) There were some challenging moments - like when everyone gets zombified - but possibly more because I'm a perfectionist on easy and like to try for zero casualties. Tricky enough to be challenging, not so hard as to stop being fun.

5. How clear did you find the objectives on the scenario or the campaign? (1-10) Mostly this was absolutely clear, but then I got to "Thunderthrow", and on turn 6 had to start over again. From the objective, I thought that it would take Wyngilla six turns to destroy the Thunderthrow, and therefore I concentrated on wiping out the right-most enemy, because I figured I would need a lot of time and space to let that happen. I think this needs to be phrased more clearly, or perhaps broken up - start with "Get Wyngilla to the Thunderthrow by turn 6" or whatever, and then update to "rescue/kill everyone" once that is achieved?

6. What part of the campaign should be developed the most when you played? (dialogues, unit images, or etc..) Some of the dialogues are very clunky or poor English. I'd recommend you get a good English communicator (I even volunteer, if you want) to proof-read all the text for the campaign. It's a very good story, but it's let down in places by unfortunate language use.

7. How do you like the scenario or this campaign? (1-10) Those few irritations aside, I enjoyed it a lot! I'd say an 8 at least, up to a 9 in some scenarios.

8. Do you have any additional comments? There was a level where the Objectives include a note about all the humans and dwarves leaving you at the end of Thunderthrow. I assumed that that meant this scenario, or the next one, but it's a good two or three in the future. I was extremely careless with my dwarves in that scenario, because I thought they'd be leaving soon. Perhaps that could be made clearer?

------optional questions------

9. What custom unit did you like the most in the campaign? (only by reviewing the whole campaign)
Actually, I really liked them all, and the wide variety of options I had. I had at least one of everything.

10. How much GOLD did you have when you started the last scenario, Legend of a Dragon? (the default is: EASY 320, NORMAL 280, HARD 260)
-E. more than 800 (could you post how much you had?)
I had 1025. Somewhere around the tunnels, I think, my gold income and bonuses just got out of control - I did most of the second half of the campaign with ~1000.
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Re: Brave Wings

Postby SkyOne » July 11th, 2010, 8:41 am

genever wrote:5. How clear did you find the objectives on the scenario or the campaign? (1-10) Mostly this was absolutely clear, but then I got to "Thunderthrow", and on turn 6 had to start over again. From the objective, I thought that it would take Wyngilla six turns to destroy the Thunderthrow, and therefore I concentrated on wiping out the right-most enemy, because I figured I would need a lot of time and space to let that happen. I think this needs to be phrased more clearly, or perhaps broken up - start with "Get Wyngilla to the Thunderthrow by turn 6" or whatever, and then update to "rescue/kill everyone" once that is achieved?

I start thinking it is better. In fact, it is very similar to the original situation (objectives) when I uploaded the campaign at the first time on BfW 1.6. I will refer it again. But on the newest edition, 0.7.4, I touched up the objectives on the sceanario by following boru's feedback above. Thanks anyway.
genever wrote:6. What part of the campaign should be developed the most when you played? (dialogues, unit images, or etc..) Some of the dialogues are very clunky or poor English. I'd recommend you get a good English communicator (I even volunteer, if you want) to proof-read all the text for the campaign. It's a very good story, but it's let down in places by unfortunate language use.

Yes! Writing English correctly bugs me a lot on the process of creating campaigns. It is sometimes harder than any parts of campaigns, although all parts are limited for me. The skill of WML or Art Work keeps improving on me, but not English. I really should have studied it more when I was young.

I will take any contributions for the dialogs to make the campaign better now, so I will appreciate if you are able to do some.:smile: (although Sneezy who is editor of the campaign might edit it slightly)
genever wrote:7. How do you like the scenario or this campaign? (1-10) Those few irritations aside, I enjoyed it a lot! I'd say an 8 at least, up to a 9 in some scenarios.

Wow! Thank you.:smile: I am glad that it fits your style of playing.
genever wrote:8. Do you have any additional comments? There was a level where the Objectives include a note about all the humans and dwarves leaving you at the end of Thunderthrow. I assumed that that meant this scenario, or the next one, but it's a good two or three in the future. I was extremely careless with my dwarves in that scenario, because I thought they'd be leaving soon. Perhaps that could be made clearer?

Oh, yes. It was a quick fix when I added scenario Bandit's Connection. The scenario has been added in between Hidden Cave and Thunderthrow lately. So yes, it should be clearer than the current one. Thanks.
genever wrote:9. What custom unit did you like the most in the campaign? (only by reviewing the whole campaign)
Actually, I really liked them all, and the wide variety of options I had. I had at least one of everything.

Glad to hear it. Thanks.:smile:
genever wrote:10. How much GOLD did you have when you started the last scenario, Legend of a Dragon? (the default is: EASY 320, NORMAL 280, HARD 260)
-E. more than 800 (could you post how much you had?)
I had 1025. Somewhere around the tunnels, I think, my gold income and bonuses just got out of control - I did most of the second half of the campaign with ~1000.

Thank you. It is helpful.
1025 GOLD on EASY is good because I do not really want to make the campaign too hard, especially this one. Having extra GOLD (especially) on the last two scenarios is more enjoyable, isn't it? When I was just a player, I always like to have extra golds to be ready for the case of hitting a very hard scenario.


Thank you so much, genever.
Fate of a Princess/feedback thread: "What is in own heart that is the most important, not who you are."
Drake Campaign: Brave Wings/feedback thread, Naga Campaign: Return of the Monster, Saurian Campaign: Across the Ocean
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Re: Brave Wings

Postby Drakefriend » July 11th, 2010, 1:17 pm

At the end of Scenario 2 should you not rather lose the ability to recruit Clashers, because they cannot fly? Fighters are fliers, while Slashers are flightless, and considering references to air travel-the mermaid Melphine said to be riding Wyngilla, the Annalist Dultas turning into a Griffinmaster- it seems strange that flightless, heavy armored giants can stay with a flying army.
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Re: Brave Wings

Postby SkyOne » July 13th, 2010, 4:09 am

Drakefriend wrote:At the end of Scenario 2 should you not rather lose the ability to recruit Clashers, because they cannot fly? Fighters are fliers, while Slashers are flightless, and considering references to air travel-the mermaid Melphine said to be riding Wyngilla, the Annalist Dultas turning into a Griffinmaster- it seems strange that flightless, heavy armored giants can stay with a flying army.

Yes. According to the story, you are absolutely right. I just use the clasher line to recruit for the game reason. I should probably change the recruitment list to the way of what you said, but it will probably change the game-balance. Also, I have to replace the pickable items and some units in the campaign if Clashers are not recruitable.

Well, let me see... If I add a couple of units that advances from Glider or Fighter, modify Sword/Battler a little bit, and remove Ark Halberd, the game may be fine. I should probably add like Drake Assault (an example) who has a pierce attack on his weapon to keep the balance of the game in the case. However, it will probably take all my free times for a whole month (or more) again. So let me think (I would like to have a summer vacation in this year :smile: ), and I would like to hear more opinions about the change if it's possible.

Thanks for playing, by the way. I like the ex-Hurricane images a lot, too.:smile:
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Re: Brave Wings

Postby boru » July 14th, 2010, 4:25 pm

Drakefriend wrote:At the end of Scenario 2 should you not rather lose the ability to recruit Clashers, because they cannot fly? Fighters are fliers, while Slashers are flightless, and considering references to air travel-the mermaid Melphine said to be riding Wyngilla, the Annalist Dultas turning into a Griffinmaster- it seems strange that flightless, heavy armored giants can stay with a flying army.


Clashers can fly. It's just that their heavy armor keeps them from flying or using flame during battles. Look at their portrait, you'll see wings.
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Re: Brave Wings

Postby Drakefriend » July 14th, 2010, 4:31 pm

However, the description still suggests they consider flight and fire.breathiing below their dignity.
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Re: Brave Wings

Postby boru » July 14th, 2010, 5:20 pm

The Clashers are members of a unique caste among the drakes. Their thick armor, while compensating for the drakes' natural weakness against spears and arrows, is so heavy and restricting that they are not able to fly or muster enough breath to use their inner fire. They have embraced this handicap, completely encasing their wings to emphasize that they do not need flight to triumph in battle.

This is also the only caste that is allowed to break taboo and fight with spears in addition to the drake's traditional metal claws, which makes them particularly good at ""resolving"" territorial disputes with other drakes and enforcing the laws of their tribe.


As I read it, the heavy armor restricts Clashers (like it would for any race) but they make a point that they don't need flight to win in battle. That's not the same as being unable to go on a journey, or that flight is below their dignity.

I guess it's a question of how realistic you want to be. In a strictly realistic game, you'd never be allowed to recruit Heavy Infantrymen in the first turn, because they haven't arrived yet.
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Re: Brave Wings

Postby Drakefriend » July 15th, 2010, 9:09 am

However, there are two problems:
[*]As they do not fly usually, Clashers would not be very able flyers for their lack of exercise; Organs that are not used get weaker over time (by the way the observation that lead Lamarck to his (wrong) theory of evolution), so the usually grounded Clashers have quite weak wing muscles, and probably they are rather bad flyers as they never learned or have(partly) forgotten how to fly. And they are the strongest and heaviest of the Drakes, so it is harder to fly for them. :eng: :arrow: Clashers are bad flyers who probably cannot hold up with the other Drakes,probably have to do many stops, and that would probably slow down the whole party.
[*]Even if the Clashers can fly without their armour-which is said to be ao heavy it disallows Drake flight- and they can keep with their comrades, their armour has to be transported, too. They would have to divide it to other Drakes, for that they cannot fly as good as normaly with their weapons made for flight, so the army is slowed down again. And in addition, I always thought the Clashers cared very much about their armory and probably would not like it to have it disassembled and given to several normal drakes.

Ín my opinion, the Clashers would probably not take part as a regular part in Wyngila's army (recruitible), he would rather take a few of them with him (recallable) so they would not significantly slow down his travel, which is a rescue mission (search for a cure to undeath) and therefor has to be fast.
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Re: Brave Wings

Postby boru » July 15th, 2010, 4:49 pm

Okay, I guess we just don't see eye-to-eye on this one. I don't think evolution enters into it, unless clashers had little clasher babies and they grew up to have their own clasher babies, etc. And maybe a clasher's wings do become weak after years and years of countless battles, but the ones I recruit have zero experience, so I guess it does not apply to them.

Also, I'm not sure how quickly the little alchemist drake can fly, or Wingzilla who's carrying a mermaid. But now I'm starting to sound like this argument.
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Re: Brave Wings

Postby SkyOne » July 16th, 2010, 3:51 am

I really appreciate your comments, Boru. From my point of view, you are a very precious user on the forums. Please, keep doing.

Drakefriend, I can see that you like this campaign. I keep your opinion in my mind. Thanks.


On the next edition, I am not going to change the recruitment list, but I will try to modify Sword/Battler a little bit. The unit is supposed to be located in between Warrior/Blademaster and Thrasher/Enforcer (or Arbiter/Warden). So I will change the movement to five and adjust the HP slightly. (not sure how I am gonna touch Angiddon-unit, yet) Basically, I change anything that makes the campaign better.
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Re: Brave Wings

Postby dragonicwarior » September 10th, 2010, 8:52 pm

i am loving the campaign so far, currrently on nagaland, and i'm curiouse, when playing their is fog and the nagas instantly know where i am and how to hit me... shouldnt they have a few guards around but not know where i am??? after all their is fog.
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Re: Brave Wings

Postby SkyOne » September 11th, 2010, 9:52 am

dragonicwarior wrote:i am loving the campaign so far, currrently on nagaland, and i'm curiouse, when playing their is fog and the nagas instantly know where i am and how to hit me... shouldnt they have a few guards around but not know where i am??? after all their is fog.

Nagas are better movement than the most of drakes on the ocean, so even we cannot see them, they can see us to attack in general. But their guards actually do not attack the drakes until they can reach in the turn, and they are on the castle on this scenario.:smile:

Thanks for playing.
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