Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Review and rate user-made single and multiplayer campaigns and scenarios.

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Circumflex
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Re: Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Post by Circumflex » May 6th, 2010, 12:13 pm

I played BMR I and II so far
on hard (but had to restart some levels about 50 times! Wanted to keep my loyal/only units alive)
The scenario with the undead attacking your 4 units was a heck of a fight (finally managed it by using only the village you start next to and the dwarf + any other unit to defend the 2 spaces)
of course i was then pissed off after 3 hours of nonstop defending vs ghosts/skeletons to see my army has disappeared and vanished into some puny ghosts. Especially my beloved dwarf and my outlaw

The level where you get 3 ghosts and they return after being dead was a piece of cake. Still i restarted it about 4 times since i wanted to kill the undead leader. I used 2 of my initial ghosts to right away walk west. After that spectre in the way the slaughter began. My ghosts kept dieing, leveling, killing some stuff and then die again. My third ghost was helping my leader to try to walk north. Still since i had only 1 ghost to support my leader i couldn't do it in time. But i managed to defeat all of the enemies level 3 units protecting his leader! And in turn 23/24 i killed his leader with 2 upgraded ghosts (one had backstab and was really lucky)
weird enough my leader would have needed only about 3 more turns by then to reach then very north. And i was pissed again since i managed to kill the necromancer but nothing happened :/
So i restarted the level again and helped my leader with all 3 of my ghosts (piece of cake!). I ended up having all 3 ghosts leveled by the time i finished.
So all in all i think for hard difficulty 2 ghosts would have done the job as well (1 wasn't sufficient obviously). Also it was a pain to have slaughtered the huge lvl 3 army and killed the leader but nothing happened.
I would have at least expected sth like this:

"Good job. You defeated my army and killed me. Still since you are only puny ghosts there is no chance you can kill the master of souls." Necromancer revives. "And of course you can't really kill my army as well". He gets another bunch of lvl 3 stuff. Then your hero says "At least this will slow him down a bit", giving you like additional 5-10 turns until scenario end.

The scenario with the appearing "help" was also puzzling me for 3 trys. First i got surrounded by enemy units before i could reach the northeast. Second my units were holding back the enemy but then the third party arrived and killed my leveled ghosts (since the necro army had already moved on to my leader only my units were left behind)
on third try i made it to the northeast safely, my leader (royal guard) killed a heck of stuff with my 3 ghosts just narrowing the entrance (but not really fighting)

-> i really enjoyed playing part I :)

Now for part 2: the general idea is really really cool. Problems i had with it:

1. i really wanted to keep my loyal units alive. THAT was hard (since i played on hard). It took me half a day until i managed that (using level 0 units as cannon fodder)
2. the map where you get the archer took me another half day. The enemy never got all villages and when reinforcements finally arrived i had already killed all units except for both the enemy leader. It was so hard because i had not that much of a good defending spot, no village to safely heal units in time (the village at the starting location was the front^^) and i had to fight on day (where a unlucky turn would let 2 spearmen get 5/6 on one of my loyal units/leader/councelor and i had to restart...)
3. the game map (where that cavalry is hunting you) really made me crazy. I was able to sneak to the south-west (could have made it to the elves as well). BUT WHERE THE HECK WAS THAT FOREST? Since the scenario description named a forest west of a village but somehow that village didn't exist on the map! It took me about another hour being ambushed every 2nd turn until i figured that it could be that tiny castle thing west to where i started (i found out by noticing that nothing happens when i enter that mine. Therefore i shouldn't have been there yet. So that forest was the only place left to go). So somehow a matching name for the village/scenario description would have helped.
4. the scenario in the forest i described at 3: Due to 3-4 won ambushes in the middle of nowhere i started with 300+ gold. The enemy started with 600+ gold, the other enemy (the thieves) with 150-200 gold. Considering an average of about 14 gold per unit (even less for thieves) a total of about 100 units were recruited/recalled. That was way too much for my computer to handle (since version 1.7 wesnoth has already been way harder to handle for my computer, everything got slower and took longer to calculate. Also that new AI that is now standard for SPC takes at least double the time the standard AI takes. Even deleting nearly all replays didn't help much this time; it usually does). So i ended up waiting for a full 10 minutes!!! each time the AI got its turn. After turn 5 i decided that this campaign is sadly not suited for my computer (since sitting there for an hour doing nothing but waiting isn't fun when you know the enemy has about 3-4 times your troops and is really likely to cause you to restart the game for several times at turn 30....)

so thank you for the campaign, i enjoyed it :) although i would have loved to continue playing it.

Also on another note: in a local game vs computer i played with the posessed animal race (called "Kh-something"). In any other matchup i was able to beat the comp on freelands with him getting 150 starting money and +5 income but not when i use that horse-loving race. It took some time until i barely figured how vector damage works (depending on your hp, chance to damage yourself with half that damage). Horses are like goblins for more cost, weaker damage and the enemy gets double the exp from killing a horse. The only chance i had was massing goats (to get rid of self-healing ranged only mummys) and using my leader for ranged attacks. Those little ranged farmer (forgot their name already) are really useless (especially vs that phantom race) since they die way to fast like any other unit except the yak (which has hp but low defense and weak attacks). There was no way i could kill a pierce-using unit without 3 of my units half dieing (mostly because of vector self-damage)

the other races were surprisingly ok balanced (considering there is a unit that can turn an infinite number of enemy units into stone and won't die even with -999/60 hp :lol2: as long as i get the first hit in). I still have my concerns about pvp but for pvm it was ok i guess

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doofus-01
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Re: Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Post by doofus-01 » May 8th, 2010, 1:43 pm

Circumflex wrote:of course i was then pissed off after 3 hours of nonstop defending vs ghosts/skeletons to see my army has disappeared and vanished into some puny ghosts. Especially my beloved dwarf and my outlaw
Makes sense. I think I'm going to change that.
Circumflex wrote:the scenario in the forest i described at 3: Due to 3-4 won ambushes in the middle of nowhere i started with 300+ gold. The enemy started with 600+ gold, the other enemy (the thieves) with 150-200 gold. Considering an average of about 14 gold per unit (even less for thieves) a total of about 100 units were recruited/recalled. That was way too much for my computer to handle (since version 1.7 wesnoth has already been way harder to handle for my computer, everything got slower and took longer to calculate. Also that new AI that is now standard for SPC takes at least double the time the standard AI takes. Even deleting nearly all replays didn't help much this time; it usually does). So i ended up waiting for a full 10 minutes!!! each time the AI got its turn. After turn 5 i decided that this campaign is sadly not suited for my computer (since sitting there for an hour doing nothing but waiting isn't fun when you know the enemy has about 3-4 times your troops and is really likely to cause you to restart the game for several times at turn 30....)
I wouldn't have patience for that either. Others have mentioned it takes too long as well. I'll get this resolved.
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lith
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Joined: April 24th, 2010, 8:50 pm

Re: Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Post by lith » May 23rd, 2010, 11:51 am

1) What difficulty levels and game (& campaign) versions have you played the scenario/campaign on?

Been playing the three parts on BfW 1.8, and just finished part three, easy mode :oops:

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario/campaign? (1-10)

Well, as i said, i played on easy mode, specially because i wanted to read the story (*hem*), thus didn't really pay attention to strategy or gold keeping.

Starting from this as an axiom :eng: , I often was playing with the minimal gold at the beginning of each scenario (well, at the first 3-4 scenarios in part II i still managed, unvolountary, to have over 1000 golds at the beginning of 1st turns).

So: I found that when one goes to kill Huric, minimal gold is 450.
For me it was a little short, mainly because both blue, green and violet units came to attack me, toghether with the cavalries (even the green one crossed the whole map diagonally to catch my units ^^'), giving the primevals very little attention; they just blocked path reciprocally, and then Huric forces only left so much units down there to keep primevals busy; also the primeval leader went out to attack an enemy unit quite soon, and when it was violet's turn, they hit him once and made him flee, so that i found myself fighting pretty much alone.
At the end, i had to restart from scratch assuring a little more gold for this scenario.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario/campaign objectives?

Had a little problem in part three, when it says to go to the volcano passing through the white dune. Instead of going to the center of the dune (i was almost there already), i turned around and went to the path NE, trying to pass beyond those mountains. I had some 10-15 skirmish scenarions in the meanwhile :augh: , until I figured out that pheraphs my destination was indeed the white pass, not the volcano. Pheraphs it might have been clearer if the objective was "search the white dune to find a pass for the volcano" or something like that. for the rest, as best as i can remember, everything seemed to be clear enough.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline?

storyline was great!
But i was hoping to have some more background about this eternal war.. Not even at the epilogue were all the questions answered (who are these guys, and where they come from, why there, why now, what is this source of power that exploses, how that stalemate was achieved in the past - the introduction was quite mysterious too.. just nosiness, of course).

In part three, last scenario, i went to kill belleros, and there i was hoping for some sort of goodbye dialog between him and raenna.. but it just went off like any other unit.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario/campaign?

well, for one, the long series of skirmishes in part III was quite difficult, specially because every time the enemy leader fled before i could reach him. Last ones, i was playing with 100 golds and an ocean of primevals coming against me, so i just put my units on the west border of the map and waited there that they all go away. Once, with this "strategy" (if so it can be called), i was able to kill the leader using belleros, a dog and an ukian commando.


(6) How fun do you think the campaign is? (1-10)

I'll gladly give it an 8.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the campaign to make it more fun?

The endgame: after mounting up a nice little army of lvl 3 units with belleros, i didn't have any chance to use it, since last scenario with him let me only recruit 5 (or four?) units and that's it. Later, i found myself with a single super-hero able to slain all by herself everything that moves in a 10 hexes radius.. And even if Ares reaches Belleros' fortress and starts making his own army, they just crumble to pieces against my hero (who for the occasion even 'teamed up' whit the chimera, since that one attacked only weak units). As for me, i don't have a fortress nearby after desactivating the bomb (well yes, there is carghanna one, with two spots for recruiting, but recruiting pairs of level 1 human units that will be easily slain and slow down my hero's movement didn't sound like a smart thing to do, since there are only 30 turns left). All in all, i was missing the big final battle against some kind of enemy. :(

(8) Any grammatical mistakes in dialogue/story text?

Hmm.. dunno :mrgreen:
I am not english myself, so all i can say is: i did understand all that was written it both dialogues and story text..

On a final note, thank you for this nice campaign, I will surely give trinity a try very soon :)

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doofus-01
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Re: Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Post by doofus-01 » May 23rd, 2010, 2:44 pm

lith wrote:Had a little problem in part three, when it says to go to the volcano passing through the white dune. Instead of going to the center of the dune (i was almost there already), i turned around and went to the path NE, trying to pass beyond those mountains. I had some 10-15 skirmish scenarions in the meanwhile :augh: , until I figured out that pheraphs my destination was indeed the white pass, not the volcano. Pheraphs it might have been clearer if the objective was "search the white dune to find a pass for the volcano" or something like that.
OK, sounds like I should do something about that. Thanks.
EDIT: Now that I look at this scenario again, I'm not sure what you mean. I don't know what version you were using, so hopefully this is something that has already been fixed.
lith wrote:But i was hoping to have some more background about this eternal war.. Not even at the epilogue were all the questions answered (who are these guys, and where they come from, why there, why now, what is this source of power that exploses, how that stalemate was achieved in the past - the introduction was quite mysterious too.. just nosiness, of course).
Most of it is supposed to be resolved in Trinity, however Trinity is a bit of a train-wreck at the moment. I'm working on it.

At some point, I hope to get a handle on FormulaAI and apply it to the skirmishes. As you noted, those scenarios can get a bit silly right now.
BfW 1.12 supported, but active development only for BfW 1.13/1.14: Bad Moon Rising | Trinity | Archaic Era |
| Abandoned: Tales of the Setting Sun
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lith
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Joined: April 24th, 2010, 8:50 pm

Re: Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Post by lith » May 26th, 2010, 9:50 pm

doofus-01 wrote:
EDIT: Now that I look at this scenario again, I'm not sure what you mean. I don't know what version you were using, so hopefully this is something that has already been fixed.
Was using version 0.9.12, but, in fact, it is not a bug, more of a misunderstandable sentence (IMHO ^^).

Here is the detail: At the beginning of the scenario,I found myself more or less in the area marked with a red cross in the picture here (pheraps a little more south, but not that far):

http://guido.free.fr/mapdetail.jpg

Here is where i got confused.

I was supposed to follow the blue path and go in the middle of the dune, but since the scenario objective said "Head toward the volcano, through the White Dunes." i thought that it just meant to go beyond the dunes and reach the mountains behind; seeing that nice little path a little further NE, i just went on and followed the red lines.. and by the time i realized that those mountains couldn't be crossed, i had lost all my gold fighting in the long skirmishes sequences that triggered every 2-3 moves.

So you see, it was just a matter of interpreting words. But i admit that for me, foreign player, it would have been easier if the objective required to search for a passage in the white dune, instead of suggesting to head toward to the volcano.

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doofus-01
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Re: Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Post by doofus-01 » May 28th, 2010, 12:56 pm

Ah, it looks like I hadn't set the event trigger area wide enough, it shouldn't have been possible to skirt around it like that. It'll be fixed next release. Thanks.
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Valinor
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Re: Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Post by Valinor » July 30th, 2010, 2:53 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game (& campaign) versions have you played the scenario/campaign on?
If reviewing a specific scenario, please specify.

I played it through on medium Difficulty

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario/campaign? (1-10)
5-8

(3) How clear did you find the scenario/campaign objectives?
Very well worded.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline?
I thought the storyline was very well done, kept me interested enough to spend hours beating my head against some tough scenarios.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario/campaign?
Low level of skill is the first thing that comes to mind. :lol2: Although you are probably tired of hearing about it, the main problem I had was with the scenario "The Camp", I just can't seem to get to the river fast enough, I got several dogs and sent them straight for the river, but even quick ones couldn't get there in time to stop the Thieves getting across. And on medium at least the horsemen they send in consisted of 1 Grand Knight, 2 Knights, and 2 or 3 Horsemen, which was just too much to cope with along with the herds of spearmen and archers.

(6) How fun do you think the campaign is? (1-10)
10

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the campaign to make it more fun?
Changes? What Changes?

(8) Any grammatical mistakes in dialogue/story text?
None that I picked up on, and since English is my first language it would be sad if I missed many.

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doofus-01
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Re: Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Post by doofus-01 » July 31st, 2010, 1:55 pm

Thanks, Valinor.
Valinor wrote:Although you are probably tired of hearing about it, the main problem I had was with the scenario "The Camp",
Some scenarios are supposed to be more difficult than others, but that one causes enough problems that it should probably be adjusted some more. At least for easy and medium difficulty.
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fenny
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Re: Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Post by fenny » August 24th, 2010, 8:51 pm

I started playing BMR for the second time (i started playing it in 1.6, but i couldn't beat Heavens Gate, in my best attempt the orc leader died one turn early, now installed it for 1.8.2), and encountered something interesting at the start of part II: After the first scenario, i refused to go straight to the village with Raenna and played two scenarios against the orcs first to get some levelled units. In the second scenario i was able to recruit archers, and i think you are supposed to go to Raenna first to get them.

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doofus-01
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Re: Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Post by doofus-01 » August 25th, 2010, 1:00 pm

That's a glitch, thanks for reporting it. It will be fixed next time.
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sandmanvt
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Re: Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Post by sandmanvt » August 31st, 2010, 2:26 am

On Royal Rumble I've killed everybody but Huric is unreachable. The tiles around him are all: Flat () - and you can't walk on them. What's the deal? I'm playing on 1.9 on a Mac.

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doofus-01
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Re: Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Post by doofus-01 » August 31st, 2010, 12:59 pm

sandmanvt wrote:The tiles around him are all: Flat () - and you can't walk on them.
I updated the map, thought it was just cosmetic. That has to be a Wesnoth bug, it doesn't make any sense.
EDIT: Yep, it was. It has been fixed for 1.9.1. If you can edit your core .cfg files, you can fix it by removing the underscore like was done here: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trun ... 7&r2=45971
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sandmanvt
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Re: Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Post by sandmanvt » August 31st, 2010, 1:59 pm

I don't know too much about working with code or how to access the .cfg file. Any chance there is another way for me to get past this? Like \victory! or \smiteHuric!

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doofus-01
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Re: Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Post by doofus-01 » August 31st, 2010, 2:57 pm

Well, I guess you could put the mouse on him, type :debug then :unit hitpoints=1 then right click on one of his guys to change them to your side (I'm guessing he is stuck in his castle with some recruits).
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fenny
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Re: Bad Moon Rising & Trinity

Post by fenny » August 31st, 2010, 6:46 pm

Today i finished BMR for the first time and here is my report:
I played the version for wesnoth 1.8.2, part I in medium difficulty, part II and III in easy.
part I:
it's a nice campaign storywise but with very few possibilities for the player. There's is just one way to play a scenario. Some scenarios seem hard at first sight, but if you know, what to do, it's not very difficult. I would say difficulty 4, fun factor 5.
part II:
Even on easy in part two some scenarios are very hard. In Reannas village you can only recruit three units per turn, and only level 1 (if you don't play some orc scenarios first). The spearmen and archers are hard to beat with level 1 ukian units.
In the third scenario (camp2 map) the enemy comes with a lot of units and the player doesn't have much money and still not to many levelled units. The following scenarios are really easy on easy.
The next hard scenario is royal rumble. It would be nice if the player could find some treasure anywhere halfway through the scenario, or had one or two villages near the camp.
The pit is a great opportunity to compensate the losses and level up some units, it's just a matter of time at the end. I could lure General Vazzan out of his keep and kill him the turn after Scarrion appeared and stop Scarrion quite comfortable. I only lost two units in the scenario one to Vazzan and one to Scarrion.
Some people find ruin hard, but i had no problems with that. I send my main force to the northeastern orc to block the wolf riders, some units to my ally for the orc in the middle of the map. I bring the civillians through the snow and the wood to the signpost. When the ghosts arrive, they are out of danger and the northeastern orc is dead.Then the ghosts fight my ally and the middle orc, so the only threat is the southern orc. But he didn't recruit wolf riders and his units avoided to go through the snow and stayed on the road. I had some turns left at the end.
In the last scenario i recalled just the minimum units and headed straight down to the lich. I had to fight a lot of skeletons and had no more money after this, but after three or four fight turns against the orcs the orc leader was killed by the ghosts.

I think the difficulty is not balanced very good on easy, some scenarios are really easy, some very hard. I would give a 10 for royal rumble ( i had to restart it several times, because Raenna, Lorenzo or Belleros died), a 4 - 7 for the rest.
The fun factor is 10 for the complete campaign, i really love it.

part III:
It's the same like part two, the most scenarios aren't too hard, with two exceptions: escape and heavens gate. I barely made it through both of this - even on easy.
When you know the snowstorm scenario, it's possible to go in a straight line to the top of the map without triggering any events (with Carghanna and another seeress). But i made sure to trigger the Raenna event for the story.
The dreams scenario is a bit confusing, because the player has two enemy sides to play. I didn't really know what to do and tried to use Raennas units to protect Belloros' units - but this didn't work. And it's a bit depressing to fight your own units at the end.

Difficulty 5-7, 10 for escape and heavens gate.
Fun factor 9 (because of the ending).

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