Endless discussion about luck and other unsavory things

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jacar
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Endless discussion about luck and other unsavory things

Post by jacar » February 6th, 2006, 9:37 pm

formerly "My Battle Tactics" - EP

I was about to give up, horribly frustrated with Wesnoth because I was getting pounded so badly in TRoW...specifically Clearwater Port. However, I finally had a breakthrough and will share with you what I know.

1) There are plenty of posts on specific tactics for leveling so I will not go into details but leave you with the thought of READ THEM. APPLY THEM.

2) In real war, you strike at your enemy's weakness and not his strength. Same applies to Wesnoth. Hit him where he is weakest. If there is an injured unit you are fighting, use a lesser unit to take him out and let your stronger units hit other full strength units.

3) Destroy his means of production. Use lesser units to occupy enemy buildings. If you have a choice of occupying a neutral building or an enemy held building (but not both) choose the enemy held building. That gives you more production and him less production. Double Whammy!

4) Chevauchee! Take some throw away units (like Thieves) and raid the enemy backfield. If you can slip these behind enemy lines, you can sometimes snap up unguarded buildings and, quite likely divert some of his forces to deal with the threat. This weakens his front lines, thus making it easier for you to fight.

5) As I found out in Clearwater Port, feints work. Send a small force on an end run to threaten a flank. Then withdrawl, come back, withdrawl. Fight when you can win. Run when you can't. This will also divert enemy forces. Similar to #4 above but with no monetary goal in mind.

6) Don't overbuy. You should never need more than 18 or so strong units. Try to purchase so that you always have a positive income each turn. 10 or so a turn is pretty good and will leave you with plenty in your coffers at the end of the scenario.

7) Loyal Units are key. They require no upkeep. It is better to have 7 medium strength loyal units than 7 high strength regular units. The proof is in the money you save on the turn to turn income.

8) Healers and mages of light are very important. 3 healers are key to bolstering a line that just repulsed an enemy attack. You can often draw your battle line in the middle of nowhere in good defensive terrain. When the enemy attacks, both sides will get beaten up. 2-3 well placed healers can help strengthen the line for an immediate conter attack.

9) Reserves are also important similar to #8 above. You can withdraw some especially injured units and attack with fresh troops on the enemy's wavering line.

10) Also imprtant is getting your injured troops into protected healing spots immediatly. It might take 3-4 turns to get them back to useful strength. Get them into a place where they will be able to stand still and gain that extra +2 healing bonus on top of the 5-8 they receive for their healing source (healers, buildings)

11) The leader slide. Leaders can modify the attack strength of units of lesser or equal level to the leader. This mod can happen at any time. Slide the leader down 1 or 2 hexes at a time, allowing attacks to occur from units they currently modify. Example below.

E E E E
_F F F E
__L

Above, the leader (L) is modifying the left and center friendly units (F). At this point the left and center should make their attacks. Then, move the leader to the right 1 space as below.

E E E E
_F F F E
___L

Now the right most friendly makes his attack...also modified by the leader. Finally, you can move the leader 1 more space to the right and make an attack on the flanking enemy.

E E E E
_F F F E
_____L
This can also be done with a Mage of Light (The level 3 healer mage with illumination).

12) Most importantly, save the game every turn at the BEGINNING of YOUR TURN. If things go wrong like you whif with one of your units even though you had an 80% chance to hit, you can easily restart at the beginning of your turn instead of the beginning of the enemies turn.

I think I have more but can't think of anything right now.

Cheers!

John
Last edited by jacar on August 7th, 2006, 12:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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JW
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Re: My Battle Tactics

Post by JW » February 7th, 2006, 4:14 am

jacar wrote: 12) Most importantly, save the game every turn at the BEGINNING of YOUR TURN. If things go wrong like you whif with one of your units even though you had an 80% chance to hit, you can easily restart at the beginning of your turn instead of the beginning of the enemies turn.
I don't have a problem with any of your advice except this last part.

It's a pretty commonly held opinion with Wesnoth players (that I know of) that S/R is cheap and can be related to cheating. Knowledge of this as a tool to save time under frustrating circumstances is understandable, although recommending the removal of chance through manipulation of the game interface isn't exactly what I would call "tactics". That's what I call cheating.

Doing it once in a (long) while is fine, but to recommend to players that they specifically set out to abuse this option isn't in line with what I see as the philosophy behind Wesnoth.

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Post by Chris Byler » February 7th, 2006, 6:30 am

However, saving is still a good idea, because if you make a tactical mistake that you don't notice until it's too late to undo it, you can load the beginning of turn save and try something different.

Saving and loading can be used to subvert luck, but that's not the *only* thing it can be used for.

Another thing I'd add: at the beginning of every turn, Ctrl-V (show possible enemy moves). If you see anything you didn't expect, figure out why before you move *anything*. Flankable/surroundable units are blood in the water and the AI is a shark.

A mistake I made way too many times before figuring it out: don't send wounded units to villages unless you are sure those villages cannot be reached by enemies.

One more: If you have two of the same unit that isn't max leveled, the one with more experience is more valuable. (Traits may modify this somewhat, if the difference in experience is small.) Use this when deciding who gets to stand at the end of the line/in the open/etc.

jacar
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Re: My Battle Tactics

Post by jacar » February 7th, 2006, 12:36 pm

[quote="JW]I don't have a problem with any of your advice except this last part.

It's a pretty commonly held opinion with Wesnoth players (that I know of) that S/R is cheap and can be related to cheating. Knowledge of this as a tool to save time under frustrating circumstances is understandable, although recommending the removal of chance through manipulation of the game interface isn't exactly what I would call "tactics". That's what I call cheating.

Doing it once in a (long) while is fine, but to recommend to players that they specifically set out to abuse this option isn't in line with what I see as the philosophy behind Wesnoth.[/quote]

I do this mainly because it can shorten the time to get back to the spot where I can play on. I have been in several scenarios where I fought myself into a bad spot and had to reload. When you have to do this a lot, the game becomes more like work and less like a game.

I will sometimes do this when I am about to kill a boss. This is because the bosses in the game can sometimes be deadly. When fighting them with an equally deadly unit, it is more like a crap shoot and less like a fight.

I do agree with you not to use this to walk your units into optimal positions. While this can be good for improving your own tactics, it is not good for game play in general.

Cheers!

John

PS Thanks Chris for the extra tips. I did not know about the CTRL V thing. I'll give it a try.

toms
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Post by toms » February 7th, 2006, 1:18 pm

I always try not to save at the beginning. Reason: whenever you do at least on save/reload, you can´t watch your scenario replay. :o

And when it comes to problems, I load the autosave from the previous turn.

I category it as a kind of cheating, but I understand you. :?
And it really could be annoying to do misclicks.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager » February 8th, 2006, 10:16 pm

toms wrote:whenever you do at least on save/reload, you can´t watch your scenario replay. :o
If this is true, it's a bug! :o
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.

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Post by toms » February 9th, 2006, 3:20 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:
toms wrote:whenever you do at least on save/reload, you can´t watch your scenario replay. :o
If this is true, it's a bug! :o
Then it´s a bug. But note that I´mplaying around at 1.0. :?
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EricDerKonig
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Post by EricDerKonig » February 9th, 2006, 4:17 pm

Chris Byler wrote:However, saving is still a good idea, because if you make a tactical mistake that you don't notice until it's too late to undo it, you can load the beginning of turn save and try something different.

Saving and loading can be used to subvert luck, but that's not the *only* thing it can be used for.
.
I agree. I admit I used to reload the autosave to scum the RNG, but I've since started just reloading saves from early on when it turns out I've made a nasty blunder. I can't imagine not saving halfway through those long, mulit-objective scenarios; I'd have having to replay the whole thing!
And as another defense to my behavior: I usually play BforW late at night, so I'm generally apt to make those boneheaded mistakes.

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JW
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Post by JW » February 9th, 2006, 8:53 pm

I didn't mean to imply that any use of S/R is bad. What was originally suggested however, was that the player save on every turn. This really doesn't serve much of a purpose other than to fool the RNG.

I simply prefer to use no S/R at all.

CarryOn
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S/R

Post by CarryOn » April 29th, 2006, 9:06 am

Using S/R as a tool to play, is considered cheating to many!

Well in that case I cheat because:

A. buying loads of units is a negative, due to lack of gold!

B. use 'the right' units and buy much less units, using strengt and
weakness of units, the huge chance/randomness in game gets you
down biting the grass!

C. even if I do use R/S, I get kicked butt, due to huge chance!

R/S cheating = makes up for some of the huge chance in game.

Eh... this started out with the intentions to make a strategy game, but
huge chance in the game truly made it a 'strategy' game.

My opinion: Don't give this game credit to be a strategy game!
it's a chance game, not a strategy game.

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Post by Elvish_Pillager » April 29th, 2006, 9:19 am

Play No Losses and you will see that this game is also a strategy game. ^_^
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.

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Post by kshinji » April 29th, 2006, 9:49 am

This game is clearly strategy game. If two equal strategist play, and have equal power at the beginning ( as well as terrain), of course it will be chance game.

But if one of players is more intelligent and knows game more, he have much better chances to win.
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Post by Silence of Echo » April 29th, 2006, 4:22 pm

toms wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote: If this is true, it's a bug! :o
Then it´s a bug. But note that I´mplaying around at 1.0. :?
I have noticed this as well.......im not programming savvy but how hard would it be/was it to fix it?

S/R is fine if a player wants to do it but bewarned:

1.) It can end up sapping alot of time.
2.) It takes the fun out of the game and turns it into a chore.

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Post by kiet » April 29th, 2006, 5:10 pm

Silence of Echo wrote:
toms wrote: Then it´s a bug. But note that I´mplaying around at 1.0. :?
I have noticed this as well.......im not programming savvy but how hard would it be/was it to fix it?

S/R is fine if a player wants to do it but bewarned:

1.) It can end up sapping alot of time.
2.) It takes the fun out of the game and turns it into a chore.
Indeed,what´s the fun of not losing any unit at all?
Aaahhhh................I love when my Triton dies,blublublublub......................

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Re: S/R

Post by Wintermute » April 29th, 2006, 6:14 pm

CarryOn wrote:Using S/R as a tool to play, is considered cheating to many!

Well in that case I cheat because:

B. use 'the right' units and buy much less units, using strengt and
weakness of units, the huge chance/randomness in game gets you
down biting the grass!

C. even if I do use R/S, I get kicked butt, due to huge chance!

R/S cheating = makes up for some of the huge chance in game.

Eh... this started out with the intentions to make a strategy game, but
huge chance in the game truly made it a 'strategy' game.

My opinion: Don't give this game credit to be a strategy game!
it's a chance game, not a strategy game.
Five statements... five accusations of "huge chance => not a strategy game". Maybe you would be happier playing a game of pure skill like Chess. There are definitely games that have less inherent chance than Wesnoth, Massive Assault comes to mind, but if you are trying to argue that Wesnoth is not a strategy game then you have obviously not played multiplayer against the developers and assorted veterans of this fine game.

Wesnoth is not for everyone. Runs of good/bad luck are common, and if you are a player that does not like to roll with the punches, or take calculated risks, then your frustration is understandable. Personally, I think that Wesnoth is one of the most enjoyable strategy games that I have ever experienced.

Each to their own!

P.S. Time-saving tip for you CarryOn: Don't play Poker.
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