Common Sense Compendium: Now with more General Advice

Share and discuss strategies for playing the game, and get help and tips from other players.

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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn » February 13th, 2008, 3:44 am

Okay, so I'll be writing an Isar's cross guide. Yeah notebook for drafting it out, so it can be worked on without you all seeing my drafts <_< <_<

Also, with regards to playing orcs, take a look at my first post...it has some recent replays.
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well

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anakayub
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Post by anakayub » February 16th, 2008, 6:25 pm

Hey Thrawn, what's taking so long? :P

Anyways, I've another interesting Isar in the 2v2 archive, D+N v N+K. You might want a look at it for reference.

I find that cooperation between partners is more stressed in such maps, including Morituri and Castle Hopping, as convergence of troops become an almost definite norm and thus fights occur more in the center. It is less so in maps like Xanthe, Loris River, where you get a bit more separation between allied forces and main battles can occur on the periphery of the maps.
Take a breath.

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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn » February 17th, 2008, 2:31 am

anakayub wrote:Hey Thrawn, what's taking so long? :P
you'll see when it's done =D

and school...I'm trying to not slack this semister....
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well

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singalen
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Re: Common Sense Compendium: Now with more General Advice

Post by singalen » March 11th, 2008, 7:28 am

Good work. What do you think about putting it into wiki?

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Post by Wesnothian » May 2nd, 2008, 2:45 am

Nice tips and advices and such,
I like them very much and has helped me alot in the beginning.
But now as I look at it (because I got better) I think they are all basic to me
but they did help me when I was a newbie!

Thanks alot to those who've made these.
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Re: Common Sense Compendium: Now with more General Advice

Post by AgentTBC » February 22nd, 2009, 11:25 pm

My tip which seems obvious in retrospect but didn't at the time, is on the harder campaigns you can't be afraid to take casualties (even lots of them) in the early scenarios. The biggest reason I had trouble getting past the first two scenarios of LEGEND OF WESMERE on hard difficulty was that I kept trying to preserve as many units as I possibly could by pulling them out of the line, not putting them in vulnerable spots, etc. This was untenable. The scenario became MUCH easier when I just started hurling newbie archers against the trolls for a couple turns. Yeah, I lost 2/3 of them but who cares?

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Thrawn
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Re: Common Sense Compendium: Now with more General Advice

Post by Thrawn » February 23rd, 2009, 12:46 am

AgentTBC wrote:My tip which seems obvious in retrospect but didn't at the time, is on the harder campaigns you can't be afraid to take casualties (even lots of them) in the early scenarios. The biggest reason I had trouble getting past the first two scenarios of LEGEND OF WESMERE on hard difficulty was that I kept trying to preserve as many units as I possibly could by pulling them out of the line, not putting them in vulnerable spots, etc. This was untenable. The scenario became MUCH easier when I just started hurling newbie archers against the trolls for a couple turns. Yeah, I lost 2/3 of them but who cares?
This is campaign specific--not general: when/ if I make/include someone elses campaign tips, I'll definately include this though ^_^
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well

Groan
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Re: Common Sense Compendium: Now with more General Advice

Post by Groan » March 22nd, 2009, 4:58 am

At the beginning of every campaign (2nd or 3rd scenario) I have been asking to myself for a few months, is it worthed to recall lvl 1 units when they only have 3 or 4 xp? Or will be better to recruit new ones (cheaper than recall)?

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Re: Common Sense Compendium: Now with more General Advice

Post by thespaceinvader » March 22nd, 2009, 2:36 pm

The cutoff point differs for everyone, but generally, less than one third EXP isn't worth recalling unless the traits the unit has are beneficial, or the unit cost more than 20 gold to begin with.
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Re: Common Sense Compendium: Now with more General Advice

Post by Groan » March 22nd, 2009, 3:12 pm

thespaceinvader wrote:The cutoff point differs for everyone, but generally, less than one third EXP isn't worth recalling unless the traits the unit has are beneficial, or the unit cost more than 20 gold to begin with.
Yes, makes total sense to me.

Thanks

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Re: Common Sense Compendium: Now with more General Advice

Post by Falzar » April 5th, 2009, 6:51 am

Platypus Arena sounds a lot like Survival Extreme...which reminds me, in Survival Extreme, bats are ridiculous :lol2: When it's 1vTons, you kinda need some sort of status to even the odds. Slow, drain, even berserking ranged enemies works quite well (berserked a 1000 HP Pirate Galleon to death once). The bosses are kinda hard (well the ones with 50-40 and 2000 HP are), but the mobs are kinda pathetic...still helps to have a way to null damage, hm? Bats are normally pretty useless, but when you're allowed to power them up... :eng:

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Re: Common Sense Compendium: Now with more General Advice

Post by Gwilendiel » April 18th, 2009, 7:14 am

I know these topics have been covered, but I found some Wikipedia articles that make for a good read...

They cover topics in a more general yet in-depth sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory the idea of Pyrrhic victory some times applies heavily to Wesnoth campaigns...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_in_detail Defeat in detail is most often a good approach in Wesnoth battles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare Another thing people need to keep in mind...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attrition_warfare

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugzwang Zugzwang applies slightly less to Wesnoth but still possible and good to keep in mind.

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Re: Common Sense Compendium: Now with more General Advice

Post by Midnight_Carnival » January 14th, 2010, 10:41 am

As noted above, a good thread and one I found most useful, it is surprising he easilly one can forget such simple obvious factors and loose because of this.

I think I am doing this.

I exprience great difficulty defeating allied oponents in various campaign stages and multiplayer vs computer oponents. About the only time I win against multiple allied oponents (other than on specially designed maps - cheating!) is when the map is small and I can finish some off in the first five turns. Playing against competing alliances of computer players, I do well and will usually have the most kills in the game, until there is only one alliance of computer players left, then I loose.

I want to be able to play Wesnoth online, but if I can't beat allied AIs, I can't hope to stand a chance against allied humans. I'm sure there is something simple I am overlooking! what is the most basic difference in strategy when facing allied oponents to playing every man for himself?
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.

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Re: Common Sense Compendium: Now with more General Advice

Post by Caphriel » January 14th, 2010, 1:12 pm

Generally speaking, in multiplayer, if you have opponents on a team, you also have allies on your team. Games are usually played 1v1, 2v2, or 3v3. So the most basic difference in strategy is that you have to coordinate with your teammates. Communication is important.

Also, the AI is not a good benchmark for your performance in multiplayer. It plays in a markedly different, and generally inferior, style to humans. What is a winning strategy against the AI will probably lose against a human player. Even if you can beat 2 AI players by yourself, the strategy you used to do so will probably fail against a single human player.

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Re: Common Sense Compendium: Now with more General Advice

Post by tekelili » January 16th, 2010, 1:35 pm

Thrawn wrote:


Part 3: Basic guide for 2v2 Games: Krotop


3) Make your strategy coordinate with your ally’s.

No matter how good you are individually, some moves which maybe ok alone can shoot in the foot of your ally if he had other plans (Ex : your rush on a strategic position while your ally needed you to remove an ennemy from one of his villages). Or the opposite, you engaged troop in a battle, counting on your ally support, but he didn’t follow because he didn’t get your strategy (Ex : you put a grunt on a jammy position to imprison a drake, but your ally don’t put a unit on the opposite hex, resulting in a meaningless sacrificed grunt instead of a trade).


4) Pay attention to the side order

This is mainly how the mechanics of the game differ from a standard duel : players are constrained to move their own troops side after side, while the battle is team against team, which makes tactics more restrictive.There are 2 configurations used for balance reasons (mainly to compensate first player advantage) :
- Players 1 & 3 against players 2 & 4, called “1212” to make short
- Players 1 & 4 against players 2 & 3, called “1221”

It’s a necessity to know which opponent is playing right after you. It’s good to ask yourself :
- Can the next opponent cover his ally before yours finish off units you expected to kill ?
- Can he shoot your exposed troops before your ally can cover you ?
- Can the next opponent attack your ally units if you don’t cover it ?
- Can he reach a strategic hex you wanted to leave to your ally ?
If you’re playing in 1221 configuration as the first player of the team, you’ll have to take care even more about which slots you’re leaving to your ally : are they safe ? will he make a better use of them than you ? does he even have troops to put there ?


5) General tips :

a. Abilities:
- If your unit is close to a healer at the beginning of the healer’s turn, it will receive health points. This amount is added to health regained during your turn if you were on a village, had regeneration or were staying. You can earn more than the standard 8-10 hp in a turn that way.
- You can use backstab with allied troops
- You don’t share leadership or protection with your ally

b. Rolling troops:
- If you have different alignments with your ally, you can take advantage of any time of day with a good rolling cooperation.
- On the other hand, rolling may not always be possible without losing some field (see point 4) and you sometime won’t want to hand off a strategic position to the ennemy.

c. Mixing units: find a compromise
- With mixed troops, you’ll have better adapted units to any situation, using them to their full potential.
Ex : you’re human+elf vs drake+undead and recruited a mage as human facing drake, and elf archer facing undead, then you’ll want to exchange units to have mage facing undead and archer facing drakes.
- On the other hand, tactics will be harder to handle, units blocking others, thus not being able to use them at all

d. Adaptation to maps & factions:
- Depending on the map size or configuration, you may not be able to mix troops at all or even want it for logistic reasons (such as grabbing villages fast or be the first on key points). Don’t mix for the sake of mixing.
- Depending on the factions, you’ll use the best compromise between rolling, mixing, or seperating sides. If you play loyalists+undeads on a small map, you’re likely to roll to take advantage of time of day and almost no mix so that the attack is more efficient (because of better tactics), while with elves+dwarves you’re likely to mix more so that every terrain is best used and you care less about time of day.

************************************************************

I hope people read these and start thinking, It will improve their game.


Thanks to Velensk, Krotop, and all the other people who have helped with this over the years!
I have found myself some usefull thinking tactics that helps me a lot in team games. Here they are for if you also find them usefull for you:

1- when more than one player of same team units are positioned or in range of the same map zone, the first you must do is identify the "row turn order" (sorry for my english).
Example: clash game. Turn order 1-2-2-1. Players 1 and 4 put their trops in front of player 3 and there is no player 2 units near. "Row turn order" here is player 4 "first in the row", player 1 "second in the row".

Now you can give different values and uses to each player units depending of their "row turn order":

2- "First in the row" units are better line defense holders. All his units can be replaced for any team unit in range, using the clasic tactic of cycling for heal while holding position. "Second in the row" units are worse line defense holders, as thay can be only replaced for that same players units, and not for "first in row" ones. This do more likely to exhaust army defense, so team cant put a full hp unit in a key spot.
So be aware of this concept, and think that an army holding a position can be weaker than you thought at first time, if the front line is mostly holded for "sencond in row" units. In the same way, when a team deploy his army on map at first turns, they should be aware that "second in row units" can likely help at full power faster in "first one in row" territory than inverse. This is because "first in row" player sometimes need help from front, while "second in row" often just need place him in back just in range for retaliation.
As example, players in a clash game with 1-2-2-1 turn order should be aware that north is likely more vulnerable than south territory due to rows configurations.

3- "First in row" infantry units are often worst attackers, because they cant shield properly "second in the row" range units as mages. An army with all his units like mages controled by "second in row" player will often work worse in an attack than inverse. Also "first in row units" have often problems to do good attacks because spots are currently ocuped by "sencond in row" units.

4- "Second in row" units shouldn t get defensive terrain so often than in a 1v1 game. If you are advancing on a enemy in retreat and your team is wisely puting "first in row" units in the front, "second in row" player should avoid take any defensive terrain with units behind the front line. If you do it (wich most players do becasu looks a very intuitive behavior end elves moves in a forest), you are destroying your army chances of a oredenated retreat. If something happens like and unexpected counter attack or just end of favourable tod, "first in row" player wont can retreat while holding the front line if the good spots are taken for the "second in row" one. As general advise, if you are a "second in row player" you have to think a lot more how to coordinate with your team mate next turn, and not less as many players do in team games.

5- Your team doesnt lose gold each time one player take a village form a mate, a team only lose gold when the player that take village goes first in the general turn order. Players should think about this when grabing villages in first turns. As example, in a clash game in wich I contol my both team sides, I often start grabing more villages with player 2 (taking some from player 3 territory) as I know I could change owner of them in future without lose team gold.

I dont want to enter in more complex team thinking tactics by the way. I hope people find usefull this ones, as this situations happen very often in team games.

EDIT: I have recently played a clash game that I think ilustrate quite well how I use this concepts, so I am attaching it.
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4p_-_Clash_replayAlone.gz
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Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
World Conquest II

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