Utilising northerners (esp. Goblins?)

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mowerpower
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Post by mowerpower »

FWIW, I made a suggestion in the Ideas forum a while ago, Suggestion: leadership allows 0lvl units to enforce ZoC, that is relevant to the apparent weakness of goblins.

If this idea was implemented, and if Goblin rousers were made to be independently recruitable, then rouser/spearmen pairs could make useful units in a Northeners-pin-down-the-feeble-enemy strategy. I'd like to hear if anyone has any ideas on how much difference this change might make?
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Slann
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Re: Utilising northerners (esp. Goblins?)

Post by Slann »

i love Northerners, but i think they have a problem:attacks. Trolls and grunts only have 2 attacks. Spearmans, fighter elvesh, drakes fighters or undeaths warriors (for example) has 3. Its a problem :hmm:
Weeksy
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Re: Utilising northerners (esp. Goblins?)

Post by Weeksy »

If you don't like the fact that they only have 2 strikes, don't use them. Keep in mind that having more damage but less strikes increases the chance of dealing full damage, and also means that even higher-hp wounded enemies can be 1-hit killed.
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Re: Utilising northerners (esp. Goblins?)

Post by Thrawn »

Slann wrote:i love Northerners, but i think they have a problem:attacks. Trolls and grunts only have 2 attacks. Spearmans, fighter elvesh, drakes fighters or undeaths warriors (for example) has 3. Its a problem :hmm:
This is why you need a mix of troops to effectively use Northerners: archers have 3 hits, nagas have 4, and the oft neglected wolf rider has 3 as well ;) don't forget the assassin either, but imo he goes without saying ;)
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Jetrel
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Re: Utilising northerners (esp. Goblins?)

Post by Jetrel »

Slann wrote:i love Northerners, but i think they have a problem:attacks. Trolls and grunts only have 2 attacks. Spearmans, fighter elvesh, drakes fighters or undeaths warriors (for example) has 3. Its a problem :hmm:
This is one selling point of spearmen. Spearmen are incredibly useful, but there are a lot of unusual things about them. Some freeform thoughts follow:

- Shadow cost is an enormous effect, which goblins are immune to. This is huge. Level one units do not cost just their hire price - they cost upkeep as well. Most games last at least ~10 turns (usually 15 or so, with the climax around 10; yes, after the climax, unit price is irrelevant, but it remains completely relevant until then). If you buy an elven fighter, it will cost you 24 gold, because you will pay that upkeep price. It's not imaginary just because you pay it gradually - it's completely real, because your game will almost always last that long; you will pay it. It's just like interest on a loan - you will pay it even though it's not in the initial balance, so it's looney to pretend it's somehow irrelevant, and not to figure it into your calculations - it makes all your units much more expensive than they appear at first glance. Goblins do not incur this cost, and it makes them radically cheaper. Because of this shadow price I mentioned, the cost of a single level-one unit is roughly equivalent to the cost of three goblins - maybe 2.5 for an elven fighter, maybe 4 for a gryphon rider or a horseman.

- If you can get them into a tile of good terrain, spearmen have good defense despite their crappy HP; they're nearly as good as mages at holding villages (which is to say, "merely okay", but they're dramatically better than, say elven scouts). If you put a spearman on a village, the enemy will usually take some grief if they try to attack it with melee. A mage will wash the thing right out, but that's not the point - the point is that the enemy will not be able to safely attack it with moderately wounded melee fighters (except during daytime).

- Goblins are not to be used like normal melee units. In relative terms, they are a high-damage, but fragile hp unit; kinda like a L0 version of the deathblade. Do not use them as tanks, do not use them as frontal assault dudes; they can't take that kind of punishment. Do use them to suddenly pigpile on archers and mages. Do use them to help guarantee killing blows on weakened melee units. Do use them to harass anything that's got a pierce weakness. Goblins are not interchangeable with grunts, and if you use them like that, they'll be a complete waste because they'll die going toe to toe with enemy melee troops. Goblins are very fragile, and don't get the chance to retreat and heal that other units usually do from a short blip of bad luck. Act accordingly.

- Rousers are not hard to get under normal settings (70%xp), you probably won't get more than one, but then you only do need just one. With it, a single L0 goblin will have a 7-3 attack during the night. Always try to level up a goblin for this express purpose.

- Because goblins are so cheap, you can afford to lose one or two to a gambit or sacrifice. If you think that tossing that additional goblin against some enemy unit will be the straw that breaks the camel's back, you should usually do it, because if it backfires, you're only out 8 gold (assuming conditions are reasonably in your favor, and you're not overextending yourself by doing so and exposing yourself to a completely slaughter the next few turns). For example, if you had some chance to deliver the killing blow to a horseman at dawn, don't be worried about losing a goblin in the process - you'll could lose much more if he lives.


:eng: Don't get the impression that I'm suggesting goblins are somehow a super-unit or something; they're just a very useful specialist. Goblins are like any other unit (except, maybe, elvish fighters) - they're useless unless they're in a combined arms force. But when they are, they can really enhance it.
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Me1234
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Re: Utilising northerners (esp. Goblins?)

Post by Me1234 »

i like to use goblins to go and be a brute. they are good at that if they are used in large numbers. the goblins are cheap and they have good attacks. but they have little likfe which is a down side. if you can get a goblin upgraded up to rouser, then the attacks are increased. if you put a goblin horde to take down a unit that has alot of life or strong attacks, then goblins a make great cannon fodder. they are cheap and tough.
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Lorbi
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Re: Utilising northerners (esp. Goblins?)

Post by Lorbi »

Jetryl wrote:
Slann wrote:i love Northerners, but i think they have a problem:attacks. Trolls and grunts only have 2 attacks. Spearmans, fighter elvesh, drakes fighters or undeaths warriors (for example) has 3. Its a problem :hmm:
- Shadow cost is an enormous effect, which goblins are immune to. This is huge. Level one units do not cost just their hire price - they cost upkeep as well. Most games last at least ~10 turns (usually 15 or so, with the climax around 10; yes, after the climax, unit price is irrelevant, but it remains completely relevant until then). If you buy an elven fighter, it will cost you 24 gold, because you will pay that upkeep price. It's not imaginary just because you pay it gradually - it's completely real, because your game will almost always last that long; you will pay it. It's just like interest on a loan - you will pay it even though it's not in the initial balance, so it's looney to pretend it's somehow irrelevant, and not to figure it into your calculations - it makes all your units much more expensive than they appear at first glance. Goblins do not incur this cost, and it makes them radically cheaper. Because of this shadow price I mentioned, the cost of a single level-one unit is roughly equivalent to the cost of three goblins - maybe 2.5 for an elven fighter, maybe 4 for a gryphon rider or a horseman.
Applies only if you have more units than villages, which is not that often the case. This is why Orcs ruke the longer the battle goes. When there number of lvl1 units equals the number of villages they havge they can go on enlarging theier army with gobos which factions that have no lvl0 cant do. But the way ypu describe you totally overrate Shadow cost. I will never pay more then the initial 14 gold ( plus maybe 2 cause i need 2 turns to get some villages on most maps ) because a setting that allows u to recruit an initial army that by far outnumbers the number of villages is very rearely seen. Problem does not exist in games that have there climax at turn 10 cause u will not be able to recruit such a bunch of units ( with sane settings, 300g and 5gpv is NOT sane, except the map is realy huge ) :P
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Re: Utilising northerners (esp. Goblins?)

Post by Weeksy »

how often do you have 16 income on caves of the basilisk? It's easy to get well over 10 units an a Fallenstar Lake match; I don't think I've seen one without that happening to both sides. Upkeep happens. Seriously. It might not happen with all your units, but you generally will have more units than villages, and it will start to add up.
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binaryquasar
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Re: Utilising northerners (esp. Goblins?)

Post by binaryquasar »

Removed on account of being wrong :roll:
Last edited by binaryquasar on March 10th, 2008, 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
AI
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Re: Utilising northerners (esp. Goblins?)

Post by AI »

No, you're missing something: Every village will take care of 1 gold of upkeep per turn. You do *not* have to pay that gold.

So, if you have 10 grunts and 7 villages:
10-7=3 gold upkeep (note the -3(10) in the status bar)
14+2-3=13 income
mameluke
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Re: Utilising northerners (esp. Goblins?)

Post by mameluke »

Jetryl wrote: - Shadow cost is an enormous effect, which goblins are immune to. This is huge.
...
- Goblins are not to be used like normal melee units.
Jetryl, thx for your great input!
I'll try to use shadow-costs more in my next northerner-battle.
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Doc Paterson
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Re: Utilising northerners (esp. Goblins?)

Post by Doc Paterson »

Mameluke, you seem perhaps a little confused. To clarify, this:
Jetryl wrote:Level one units do not cost just their hire price - they cost upkeep as well. Most games last at least ~10 turns (usually 15 or so, with the climax around 10; yes, after the climax, unit price is irrelevant, but it remains completely relevant until then). If you buy an elven fighter, it will cost you 24 gold, because you will pay that upkeep price. It's not imaginary just because you pay it gradually - it's completely real, because your game will almost always last that long; you will pay it.
is only completely true on a map with zero villages. There aren't any such maps in default era. Most 1v1s have 7-10 per playerside. If you have 8 villages and 10 L1 units, you'll pay a 2G upkeep, not a 10G upkeep (add your +2G per turn and you'll be paying a total of zero, in that example). If the above quote were true, goblins would be about 2-3 times as good as they currently are. ;)
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