Faction Observations: Who's the strongest? Who's the best?

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turin
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Re: What version?

Post by turin » January 9th, 2008, 7:20 pm

Kamamura wrote:It would be good to say what version are y'all referring to? The stable or devel branch? As I understand it, the magic is reworked in the devel version (holy changed to arcane and resistances were changed). The balance cannot be the same.
The dev branch is the only one worth discussing balance-wise, as I understand it - stable is too out-of-date.
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Re: Faction Observations: Who's the strongest? Who's the best?

Post by stupidjaguar » July 22nd, 2009, 2:10 am

Today, I finished playing Northern Rebirth for the first time. Many days ago, before I ever looked at this campaign, I was surprised to see the first post say that Knalgans were the most powerful race.

Today, I could not agree more. I never thought it possible to defeat 200 orcs with only a few hundred to a few thousand gold's worth of troops. But with 12 Dwarf Lords, some hills/mountains, and invincible healers... such a combination can defeat anyone. True, there were 200 orcs, but I had dwarvish lords, a great mage, an ancient lich, and invincible healers. Unstoppable and very fun to play.

Knalgans are definitely extremely powerful. Their only weakness is low defense on non-hilly territory. Mobility doesn't quite seem to be an issue... how much do you exactly want to outrun opponents? Perhaps running away to heal could be the issue. First here for power, second for fun.

Elves are varied and fun to play, especially with advanced units of the Shaman line. Since in MP you also have mages, which involve into my favorite units in the whole game, I give this first for fun. I give it second for power because I recently learned (see above) that dwarf lords are near invincible.

I also had to play with drakes. They're amusing but die easily and don't seem to do a compensating amount of damage. Perhaps it's my bias with the fire-throwing mages and elves, but somehow I keep thinking that the drakes' fire should hit more often... it seems that half the time the fire-throwers miss all 4 or 5 times.

Northerners being low doesn't surprise me. They're units to crush, not fear. Their level 3s are routine enemies to destroy. They have no real resistances, their movement is ordinary, they have no magic, and little range. Orcs generally end up being standard slaughter enemies.

Undead are great, but it is true, they have too weak resistances to maintain normal offense. Fire and arcane will murder them, except for the Ancient Lich which is one of the beastliest units I have ever seen. I've had my Ancient Lich destroy six trolls in a single defensive turn and come out mostly healed. Playing Undead simply takes different tactics from other factions because of their instability: weak defense and occasionally overpowered offense.

Loyalists also strike me as sort of boring; the level three melee fighters are incredible but the level ones and twos are boring. Mages are fun to play with, though.

Sorry for posting in such an old topic.
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Re: Faction Observations: Who's the strongest? Who's the best?

Post by silent » July 22nd, 2009, 3:28 am

In campaigns, Knalgans are pretty good but I find them atrocious in multiplayer.

They have to be the most RNG/terrain dependent faction in the default era. Great when they dodge, crap when they don't. The lack of any magic or marksman just furthers this problem.

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Re: Faction Observations: Who's the strongest? Who's the best?

Post by Araja » July 22nd, 2009, 3:59 pm

It's ironic that Northerners are a classic campaign/RPG enemy which should be slaughtered in large numbers like the pathetic little newbs they are yet....

Somehow, when you face them in MP they just keep coming. there's 4-5 of them. then the wolf riders grab some villages, and suddenly theres 27 of them rushing towards you, destroying your units with single attacks and crushing you like some unstoppable Tsunami wave... :shock:

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Re: Faction Observations: Who's the strongest? Who's the best?

Post by Velensk » July 22nd, 2009, 5:56 pm

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression this thread was based on multiplayer (where the issue of a dozen dwarf lords on mountains and liches arn't an issue). Campaigns give a very skewerd view of faction power.

Over time I've come to realise that in the hands of a master all the factions are pretty strong, very close to equal. Many players have a hard time with drakes/knalgans, but I can assure those that when played well they are just as strong as any of the other factions and not any more reliant on luck.
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Re: Faction Observations: Who's the strongest? Who's the best?

Post by Araja » July 22nd, 2009, 6:24 pm

Well, it says 'Who's the strongest? Who's the best?" and nowhere does it specify "In MP matches?"

All factions can technically be played well by a good player, but a factions power could be accurately gauged by how well it plays on average.

A faction of Saurians, Merfolk, and Bats could be either crushed or played well by a good player, this does not mean it's balanced, it only shows it has strengths and weaknesses.

If alot of people believe the Knalgans are the best faction for example, then arguably they are the best faction, and if alot of people think the Northerners have a problem then...well, they have a problem.
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Re: Faction Observations: Who's the strongest? Who's the best?

Post by Turuk » July 22nd, 2009, 6:40 pm

Araja wrote: Well, it says 'Who's the strongest? Who's the best?" and nowhere does it specify "In MP matches?"
Read the first post. Heck, actually read the damn thread. It's about MP.
First Post wrote:Granted it depends a lot on map type and what teams are
Why would it matter what the strongest or best faction was in a campaign? You don't have a choice who you play as or who you play against, and the sides are never equal. Don't be obtuse for the sake of arguing.
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Re: Faction Observations: Who's the strongest? Who's the best?

Post by Scipion121212 » July 22nd, 2009, 6:51 pm

I think in 1 on 1 factions are nearly 100% equal with tiny advantages possibly going to both sides, REALLY hard to tell.

But you can see that one combination of factions IS OVERPOWERED..
what is it..?

in 1221 team, the first is elf, the second dwarf.
Can your silly slowed unit beat the mighty ulfserker? :twisted:

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Re: Faction Observations: Who's the strongest? Who's the best?

Post by Soliton » July 22nd, 2009, 6:55 pm

Araja wrote: If alot of people believe the Knalgans are the best faction for example, then arguably they are the best faction, and if alot of people think the Northerners have a problem then...well, they have a problem.
And if a lot of people believe the earth is flat then arguably it is flat!
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Re: Faction Observations: Who's the strongest? Who's the best?

Post by Pentarctagon » July 22nd, 2009, 7:06 pm

Scipion121212 wrote:in 1221 team, the first is elf, the second dwarf. Can your silly slowed unit beat the mighty ulfserker? :twisted:
why slow anyone? hit the ulf with a wose and it's gone :P .
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Re: Faction Observations: Who's the strongest? Who's the best?

Post by Scipion121212 » July 22nd, 2009, 7:42 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:
Scipion121212 wrote:in 1221 team, the first is elf, the second dwarf. Can your silly slowed unit beat the mighty ulfserker? :twisted:
why slow anyone? hit the ulf with a wose and it's gone :P .
ergh.. because slowed wose can be killed by ulfserker? I probably didn´t make it clear enough, it´s like 1-rebel-dwarf-1 =)

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Re: Faction Observations: Who's the strongest? Who's the best?

Post by Caphriel » July 22nd, 2009, 8:21 pm

In general, rebels make a good first-player-in-sequence because of the shaman. Slow is nice, and it's also easy to take advantage of their healing in that situation.

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Re: Faction Observations: Who's the strongest? Who's the best?

Post by stupidjaguar » July 23rd, 2009, 10:15 am

I wasn't arguing that Knalgans were the best in some campaign, I just said that not previously having much experience with dwarves (only in HttT where I didn't use them too much, but now I regret it), having experience with dwarf lords awakened me to their power. The factions have been carefully designed to be pretty well balanced, how they do then depends on all the other factors. No single person is right; everyone has different styles and thus perhaps a faction that they can use to the best of its ability.
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Re: Faction Observations: Who's the strongest? Who's the best?

Post by Scipion121212 » July 23rd, 2009, 12:31 pm

stupidjaguar wrote:No single person is right; everyone has different styles and thus perhaps a faction that they can use to the best of its ability.
I find this statement wrong - this thread isn´t about how well you play different factions, but which are the best, which shouldn´t be based on personal preferences, but on potential.

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Re: Faction Observations: Who's the strongest? Who's the best?

Post by stupidjaguar » July 23rd, 2009, 12:37 pm

I sort of realized that later...

I'll go crawl into my hole now
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