Replay north vs loyalist

Share and discuss strategies for playing the game, and get help and tips from other players.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply
Skuilla
Posts: 13
Joined: August 16th, 2019, 4:22 pm

Replay north vs loyalist

Post by Skuilla » September 7th, 2019, 4:56 pm

Hi,
I try to post a reply of one match in order to understand why I lose every single match in multiplayer.
I play north, at the start i try to push but when I arrived in the first village of my adversary is too late for a rush, so i retreat back, it's day and I lose.
Thi thing happen usually, when play caotic on this map, also If I play more defensive, my adversary have legal units and so have more time to prepare for rush, because the game start on day, and I lose.
2g – Villaggi replay.gz
(14.48 KiB) Downloaded 51 times

User avatar
sergey
Posts: 436
Joined: January 9th, 2015, 9:25 pm

Re: Replay north vs loyalist

Post by sergey » September 8th, 2019, 8:52 am

Your main problem there is your low morale. Mentally, you was defeated from the beginning because of your previous failures. Bad luck made situation even worse. Your opponent gave you advices, but you wasn't able to listen. Instead of that you complained. I am not very good player to give advices, anyway here is what I think. At day you should have retreated, and attack him only if there is no retaliation (with assassin and maybe archer). You should left grunt in a village to slow down his village grabbing. If he had a mage (or maybe two) who can reach the grunt in a village, I even consider move back out of mage's range. What is the most important - you should position your units on good terrain, prevent enemies to attack from many sides, poison enemies. Ideally surround them at dusk and kill when the night comes. Instead of that your units where scattered, you was not positioning them into a defensive wall. That's what your opponent said - retreat and hope for get luck to not be slaughtered.

I attached my replay. I played there with the same opponent, on the same map and with the same factions. He was Northerners P1, I was Loyalists P2. Take a look how he dealt with me, what mistakes I did and so on.
Attachments
2p__Hamlets_Turn_15_(95334).bz2
(11.15 KiB) Downloaded 43 times
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.

User avatar
ForPeace
Posts: 71
Joined: December 12th, 2015, 3:09 pm

Re: Replay north vs loyalist

Post by ForPeace » September 8th, 2019, 7:18 pm

TL; DR: Work on your unit composition. Choose grunts instead of trolls. Attack on one side instead of two. To have a chance of a successful attack you need 3 grunts attacking the village on first watch.

When attacking, I'd prefer to have grunts instead of trolls. Grunts are faster and do higher damage, whereas trolls might not get to opponent villages in time. So it happened in the game - at turn 5 (first watch) trolls are too far away. In general, trolls are better than grunts when you are fighting undead or need to defend. In any other case, choose grunts.

Second issue: when you want to get a village - this is the goal of first night attack, you need to concentrate your units so that you make a real threat of killing units or surrounding them.

Look at example from turn 5: We would like to kill a spearman standing on 21,19 village. Notice it has 34 hp - this is 2 non-strong grunt hits (11 dmg) and 1 strong grunt hit (12 dmg). Ideally we would like to have 3 grunts to deal damage and another unit to claim the village. Also, this is the side of the map where our opponents has the majority of villages. So maybe we'd like to have a scout here to threaten going behind enemy lines and grabbing villages. However, on this side of the map there are only 2 grunts that can reach the spearman and a troll that unfortunately is too slow to attack the spearman. So no chance of successful attack.

Meanwhile, on the left side, we have four orc units. Only one grunt which can do reliable damage. Archer and wolf can indeed reach the spearman but they don't do enough damage to make a real threat and our opponent has already enough units to defend.

If instead on turn 1 we made a grunt heavy recruitment and sent most units to the right side, we'd have higher chances of a successful attack.
ForPeace (ladder) | sxpg (lichess)
Jeżeli jesteś polskim graczem, dołącz do wesnoth.com.pl

User avatar
sergey
Posts: 436
Joined: January 9th, 2015, 9:25 pm

Re: Replay north vs loyalist

Post by sergey » September 8th, 2019, 7:53 pm

Here are my thoughts. I won't guarantee that my comments are 100% correct, you shoud better listen to ForPeace. But since I already prepared an answer, here it is.

Turn 1. South western castle - recruit grunt instead of troll. That way you could grab 12,10 village one turn earlier. On the next turn, you could use that grunt to grab 7,11 village.

Turns 2-3. As P1 (player 1) it is prefferable to attack the south eastern part of the map, since it has more villages. However, you placed an archer (offensive unit) to the western part of the map.

Turn 4. Very unlucky. Anyway, you should have prepared at least 3 units to attack the 21,19 village instead of 2.

Turn 5. You moved wolf rider from western part to the center on hex 14,15. That way you can reach the 21,19 village with 4 units on the next turn. But your opponent uses merman fighter to block your wolf rider. If you would placed the wolf rider on 15,14 instead of 14,15 it would be better imo. That way, oponnent should have placed merman fighter (or cavalry) further to the north. And you could use that opportunity and attack the merman fighter instead of attacking the village. Since he would stay further to the north, attacking him you will combine two actions - retreat to the north and still use the second watch to deal damage, ideally kill the merman fighter. You could use troll on 17,16 hill to block the merman figher and cover your retreating units.

Turn 6-7. I am not sure about that, but perhaps you could sacrifice your troll and full hp grunt to block and slow down the enemy.

Turn 8. That was a mistake to attack. As your opponent said, you should retreat. I would left the grunt in the village and retreat with the rest of the forces.

At turn 9 you had -33% inflicted and +22% taken damage. You was very unlucky during that match, I would not consider that as your defeat because of the very bad luck.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.

User avatar
josteph
Developer
Posts: 738
Joined: August 19th, 2017, 6:58 pm

Re: Replay north vs loyalist

Post by josteph » September 9th, 2019, 2:53 am

sergey wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 7:53 pm
At turn 9 you had -33% inflicted and +22% taken damage. You was very unlucky during that match, I would not consider that as your defeat because of the very bad luck.
The hit statistics tell the same story:
2019-09-09-024704_386x183_scrot.png
2019-09-09-024704_386x183_scrot.png (55.55 KiB) Viewed 484 times
You had extraordinarily bad luck on attack (28 hits of 39 strikes, there was only a 1/200 a priori chance of having so few hits) and extremely bad luck on defense.

I'm not that good a player, but I do suspect in this case you really were defeated by the RNG more than anything else.

Skuilla
Posts: 13
Joined: August 16th, 2019, 4:22 pm

Re: Replay north vs loyalist

Post by Skuilla » September 9th, 2019, 7:55 am

Yeah, could be bad luck, but how underlined by ForPeace and sergey my game is not so good.
For sure I need to improve my game, the bad luck is not so important if I know that my game is ok.
I have a question in this map with these factions, the only way to play the first night is rushing the village? Because generally I prefer not rushing, expect when I see an clear advantage, but I think that every time I do not rush or my rush fail, I find my self in the same situation on day with a lot of units lost.

foreverfighter
Posts: 3
Joined: November 21st, 2016, 10:17 am

Re: Replay north vs loyalist

Post by foreverfighter » September 11th, 2019, 4:30 am

It's important to do the rush on first night vs lawfuls to take the initiative, or else they can freely attack your in the daytime.

User avatar
Crimson_Conure
2019 Amateur Fast Champion
Posts: 25
Joined: March 24th, 2016, 12:15 pm

Re: Replay north vs loyalist

Post by Crimson_Conure » October 6th, 2019, 2:05 pm

I could be wrong but I believe the principle is that when playing with orcs, rush on the first night. When playing with undead, rush on the second night (or first night if you are facing rebels due to wose, shaman, and fighters being able to set up formidable positions against undead for attack or defense given enough time)

Post Reply