EI: The Outpost - modified to use only Dark Adepts

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josteph
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EI: The Outpost - modified to use only Dark Adepts

Post by josteph » December 26th, 2018, 9:46 pm

(continued from the campaign's thread)

I modified the first scenario of EI to force the AI to recruit Dark Adepts only, and tried to beat the scenario on hardest difficulty. What's the best strategy for the modified scenario?

My replay is here, so you can try the scenario by loading the replay and pressing "Continue Play" in the replay screen. I'm also attaching the scenario diff if you prefer that.
EI-The Outpost Turn 11-end.gz
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In my attempt:
diff:

Konrad2
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Re: EI: The Outpost - modified to use only Dark Adepts

Post by Konrad2 » December 26th, 2018, 10:38 pm

I'll try to prove you wrong, but one thing first: An AI recruiting only DAs in this scenario would be a bug and something that shouldn't happen at all. So, it does not really matter if you are right or wrong, at least it doesn't matter to the game, right?

EDIT:
Just to be sure, we are assuming the player knows that the enemy will recruit DAs only, right?

EDIT 2:
There you go. Yes, it was hard, but doable. And I probably made a big mistake at the beginning by attacking one turn too early.
Basically, get only spearman and try to kill them (before they can attack you and run away at night.
Looking at your replay, your mistake was to play to their strenghts, while giving up your villages as well. Going full defensive vs mages is never a good idea, because they excel at dismantling defences. And you really need that income, doubly so to deny them that income.
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josteph
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Re: EI: The Outpost - modified to use only Dark Adepts

Post by josteph » December 27th, 2018, 2:47 pm

Konrad2 wrote:
December 26th, 2018, 10:38 pm
I'll try to prove you wrong, but one thing first: An AI recruiting only DAs in this scenario would be a bug and something that shouldn't happen at all. So, it does not really matter if you are right or wrong, at least it doesn't matter to the game, right?
Not quite.

My original point here was, basically, "Could the AI always win if it recruited more DAs than now". As you say, the antecedent of that condition is counterfactual; however, I think it nonetheless does matter to the game, because the player the player is supposed to use a strategy that will work against any possible strategy of the AI, and the player doesn't know the AI recruits no DAs. I think it is fair to ask whether the player can counter the AI if the AI uses DAs (alongside Skeletons, Bats, and so on), since on turn 1 that's exactly what the player will think about when deciding what units to recruit.

However, I agree that the player will not think "How to counter DAs only", but "How to counter some combination of DAs / Skeletons / Bats / etc"; making the AI recruit only DAs was just for testing/research purposes.
Konrad2 wrote:
December 26th, 2018, 10:38 pm
Just to be sure, we are assuming the player knows that the enemy will recruit DAs only, right?
Yes.
Konrad2 wrote:
December 26th, 2018, 10:38 pm
There you go. Yes, it was hard, but doable. And I probably made a big mistake at the beginning by attacking one turn too early.
Basically, get only spearman and try to kill them (before they can attack you and run away at night.
Looking at your replay, your mistake was to play to their strenghts, while giving up your villages as well. Going full defensive vs mages is never a good idea, because they excel at dismantling defences. And you really need that income, doubly so to deny them that income.
Thanks once again! I'll have to try that strategy myself. However, the AI was very close to winning: on turn 7 purple had 74% to kill your leader and on turn 8 24%.

Konrad2
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Re: EI: The Outpost - modified to use only Dark Adepts

Post by Konrad2 » December 27th, 2018, 10:36 pm

josteph wrote:
December 27th, 2018, 2:47 pm
I think it is fair to ask whether the player can counter the AI if the AI uses DAs (alongside Skeletons, Bats, and so on), since on turn 1 that's exactly what the player will think about when deciding what units to recruit.

However, I agree that the player will not think "How to counter DAs only", but "How to counter some combination of DAs / Skeletons / Bats / etc"; making the AI recruit only DAs was just for testing/research purposes.


Thanks once again! I'll have to try that strategy myself. However, the AI was very close to winning: on turn 7 purple had 74% to kill your leader and on turn 8 24%.
So, I believe I did prove that the player can win this scenario, if the enemy recruits with the normal+DA setup, right?


I'll try again, while avoiding my mistake in the third turn.

Konrad2
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Re: EI: The Outpost - modified to use only Dark Adepts

Post by Konrad2 » December 27th, 2018, 11:16 pm

I'm doubleposting because I want this to be seen asap. :D
I really hope that this win is solid enough for you. ^^
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josteph
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Re: EI: The Outpost - modified to use only Dark Adepts

Post by josteph » January 1st, 2019, 3:59 pm

First of all, sorry for disappearing. I hadn't forgotten about this thread but in the weekend past I was too tired to watch the replay and analyze it to learn from it. I wanted to give it the fully-awake attention it deserved so I waited.

Yes, it's very solid indeed :D Aside from villages, I think the most difference was made by the fact that you positioned your units so you got the first volley. You managed to slay several Adepts before they got a single shot. The secret to winning is to deal more damage than the enemy; I should have remembered that :oops:

Thanks a lot, good sir!

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