Knalgan vs Loyalists

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batoonike
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Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by batoonike » January 11th, 2018, 4:29 pm

This is triggered by someone saying that one of the more troublesome match-ups is Knalgan vs Loyalists. Which one is considered to be in better position on standard maps and why? Any tips for either race? I've read the general how to play guides of both but these are super generic. It basically says that knalgans need to make a bunch of thunderers.

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Krogen
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Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by Krogen » January 11th, 2018, 7:01 pm

That someone was probably me, i said it somewhere not long ago.
In short, Loyalists vs Knalgans is the worst matchup ever, because Loyalists have a decisive advantage against the Knalgans. The main reason is that the Knalgans can't attack properly. The Loyalists will decide when and where the battle takes place, and the opponent can only answer to that.
Loyalists will rule the map. Both sides has 2 scout-like units: Horseman+Cavalryman vs Footpad+Gryphon Rider. Both in cost-effectiveness and actual power, the horses will dominate the birds and pads. Which means instantly after the start, the Knalgans are pushed back, they have to go defensive. Even if the defense is proper and the Loyals can't just run them over at second day, the dwarves with 4 or 5 mp will not be quick enough to launch a counter-attack during the night. The Loys will just retreat a bit and return next day all the same, probably supported by Mages by then. And Mages will break the line. Even in positioning before the battle the Loyalists are far better. They have these powerful horses with 8 and 9 mp. Even their core, the Spearman is quicker than most of the dwarvish forces. The outlaws can actually keep up with them, but they are not powerful enough to withstand an attack. Retreating isn't a good option either. Loys will just take the vills the Knalgans gave them and sit there. Knalgans are horrible in retaking villages.
Most of the time, the Knalgans will die a slow death. Only serious luck or fatal mistakes from the opponent can turn the tide.

Probably the most popular counter-argument is that Knalgans can go HODOR, problem solved, they can go offensive. And it's actually true, outlaws are quick and cheap enough for a good rush, they can gain enough advantage first night. But in competitive matches it's usually Random vs Random. And a good HODOR rush starts at turn 1, which means you have to know from the start what your opponent can bring to the table, to counter Loyalists. And let's say the opponent didn't get Loyalists, he got Northerners. End of story, you are doomed. To me, it's not a solution to go HODOR from turn 1 because MAYBE the opponent got Loyalists. You can counter one problem, but cause another, probably even bigger one. Imo it's not a good trade that you have a chance against Loyalists (just a chance, not advantage, Loy can still beat a HODOR rush), but in return, you almost instantly lose against Northerners and probably Rebels too.
If you go mix, then you'll not have enough outlaws to gain advantage during first night, and it's all the same.
Narrow maps might give some more chance to the Knalgans. But usually that's the only advantage of narrow maps, they are harmful for most other matchups.

That's my opinion about Loyalists vs Knalgans. And unfortunately i don't even have a good idea about any solutions.
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Calm
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Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by Calm » January 20th, 2018, 10:51 pm

Hi Krogen, I don't have a ton of experience with the matchup, but I guess I'm an instinctive arguer, ha.

It seems to me like while it's true that the Knalgans can't really attack well, Loyalists will have problems there too if the Knalgans play it right. While it's true that Loyalists can break Knalgan positions with mages, it will likely require *multiple* mages to kill a dwarf in one turn, which is prohibitively expensive to do with the escort to do so safely, and have enough units for map control.

In fact, I think the Knalgans struggle to attack in *all* matchups, and that this is part of their intended design. I think the idea is carefully place your dwarves in places that meet the magic balance of: far enough forward to be something of a threat, on hilly enough terrain to retaliate at advantage or at least parity, and far back enough that they can't be swarmed. Then at night, the outlaws do the "attacking," which in reality is just cleanup.

Velensk
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Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by Velensk » January 20th, 2018, 11:41 pm

The problem Krogen is describing is one of control rather than strictly being a matter of power or even strictly offense.

It's not even that knalgans cannot attack loyalists under the right conditions, it's that when both players are playing well, the knalgan can never expect to be in position to create those correct conditions. Whereas although loyalists need specific conditions to break knalgan defenses, they can achieve those conditions very reliably. Loyalists don't need to break knalgan positions quickly, they simply need to be able to exert enough pressure that knalgans have to stay far enough back that attacking is never practical. At this point, they can afford to save up for whatever tools they need and dismantle dwarves defenses piecemeal. On most maps, this isn't too hard for the loyalists to achieve this before knalgans reach a sufficient number of guardsmen that they stop having to retreat as far back to not be slaughtered at day (and even then, the loyalists still have a lot more flexibility).

I would argue that the undead vs knalgans matchup is still a more problematic match-up but Krogan's points are very valid.
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Krogen
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Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by Krogen » January 21st, 2018, 1:52 am

Exactly.
I used to be a big UD vs Rebel and UD vs Knalgans hater, but now i see it differently. I'll focus on the latter, since not everybody agrees if the first one even has problems, and i don't want to start that argument, not here. While UD has a hard time against Knalgans, there is one thing that can be said for sure: they can attack, they can take the initiative. They can make things happen, even when ulfs are nearby. They can be threating enough to at least put the Knalgans on the defensive for the night. So if the Knalgans don't attack them, they can certainly expect a counter or at least some pressure.
Meanwhile in Loys vs Knalga, thats not the case. If the Knalgans don't prepare for a Hodor rush (which is not a right strategy against a random opponent), there is just no hope for them to even threaten a Loyalist player, who's playing properly. Yes, their defense will be stronger and stronger, but they can only wait for the inevitable, the Loyalist offensive. As said above, they can't create the right conditions for an attack worth trying.
That's why i consider it the worst matchup. I've played both and i would certainly go with the UD vs Knalga rather than the Loys vs Knalga. Even when im Knalga against UD and i have the advantage i have that thought in my head: "If i don't make this happen, my opponent will." When im Loy against Knalga, that just disappers. I know i can plan this out the way i want to. Ofc i can't do everything, i can't wait for eternity, because a Guardsman wall is indeed a pain. But the battle will take place whenever and wherever i decide to, that's guaranteed. And to me, that's the biggest possible advantage.
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Elder2
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Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by Elder2 » January 21st, 2018, 6:44 am

How often do you see knalga vs loyalist won for knalga compared to ud vs elves or ud vs knalga won for ud? Exactly, some don't remember ever seeing knalga win this or remember some old game while it is not as radical for the other 2 matchups.

I did win it a few times (like... 3?) but lost way, way more and the biggest problem for knalga are 2 units: horsemen and fencers. Obviously spamming these 2 units exclusively is not very likely to win you the game but they give loyalist all the tools to break any defense, except the most carefully prepared, campy and full of thunderers and guards defense. And you will still need luck to defend against a strong loyal dwarf slayer force if the loyal doesnt spam a lot of spears and instead invest in more offensive units.

Fencers can create a lot of chaos in dwarf line and they can bypass campy dwarf positions threatening to take villages and trap units, they also can kill ulfs at day. Horsemen will give loyalist as much damage output as he needs to kill thunderers on hills or guards with mages help, and definitely any unit standing on flat at day. Mages also could be considered problematic units but they are fragile, take retal from thunderers, are countered by ulfs and you will need some time to get the gold to recruit a lot of them, they are known to not be a very cost efficient unit.

Fundamentally the crushing advantage of loyal is the insane damage output it can field against dwarf and all dwarf can do is to sit and wait for the punishment to come, fencers can slip by the dwarf defensive line, backstabbing units and creating chaos, and dealing with them using dwarf's relatively poor damage output for the unit cost is not easy unless you have survived rush and have a big thunderer, guard and ulf army, this combined with the damage output of horsemen, mages or even spears makes defending extremely hard.
However if your are extremely persistent and loyal is very defensive, you can make a huge dwarf army which is very difficult to crack, then you can attack and actually win and its not that hard, but it has only happened to me ever once.

name
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Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by name » January 23rd, 2018, 7:16 am

So maybe knalgans need more offensive potential in their outlaw units to counter loyalists? Like enhancements to the poacher and/or thief?

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Elder2
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Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by Elder2 » January 24th, 2018, 9:58 am

let hodor stay in its place as I despise it xD

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Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by name » January 25th, 2018, 6:04 pm

Well you undead players might need to get a similar boost to undead scout power to better compete with an improved hodor.
Maybe a cheaper ghost and improved bat (in various ways)?

With all the changes demolishing the bat over the years, with ghosts so expensive, I wonder if undead scouts are not already too weak in combat for their prices.

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Coffee
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Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by Coffee » January 26th, 2018, 7:42 am

Here's another opinion on this match-up. In short, maybe your strategy with dwarves vs loyalists should depend on map and circumstances.

Below, the long version :P

I would move quickly to a central point with your leader and recruit from there dwarves. Beforehand you want to assess if you want footpads, theives, or gryphons as scouts. This should I think depend on early gold for recruits (as bird takes up lots of gold and you want to recruit closest to zero gold) and map and how you want to trick the opponent. For example, on a large map, 2 gryphons can usually stay out of reach of loyalists early and might be able to pick off a bad trait unit, recover and heal. You want to do this rarely, but throw this type of strategy in there occasionally.

I don't agree with others that dwarves can only sit back and defend. Even though dwarves have low movement points they can move faster than loyalists when there are lots of terrain (such as hills/forest/sand/mountains). You can use this to your advantage to push and gain hills ground that can be held through day over a couple of day/night cycles against an opponent of roughly equal skill level. Once you have more villages than your opponent you can sit and wait it out to win. When you are up enough the birds usually come out to finish the opponent quickly.

In most maps I would recruit at start mostly outlaw to get villages quickly. You can recruit thief hoping for quick trait as scout and recruit footpad or gryphon and take closer village on first turn if he doesn't get that trait. Same goes for footpad and gryphon. Like this you can save gold and get extra 3 gold on first turn you can put saving on units towards expensive dwarves. In general birds are not as good value as other units, so if you can avoid paying for them you are ok.

The ulf is only 19 gold and loyalist mage is 20 gold. Usually you want to use ulf to kill a mage and do damage to another unit. You are ahead here if you can do this again and again.

Heavy Infantryman can be killed by footpad/poacher/thunderer and fighter (impact to finish) or something like this. Funnily enough it can be easily outrun by dwarves.

The cavalrymen/horsemen only have 40% defense at best and can be shot down with poacher/thunderer and killed by guardsman as well. If the horseman kills dwarf or thief or something and you do retaliation damage and then kill it you are ahead in gold as horseman is expensive.

The spearmen have trouble with fighters on hills as they have more defense and will take more of a beating on average over the whole day/night cycle. You should be good if you can get the hills in a good position before the loyalists in a central position (say with footpad and thief or quick dwarves and then switch to more hardy units). Obviously you want to retreat a bit back during day, but the dwarves usually can at full hp take a beating for one day period before the chaotic units can come in and more healthy units take the front line.

So, in general with dwarves I would try to get a foothold on good position (most villages, central positions), switch these quick units to more hp units, take a beating during day, cycle these to back to heal, put new high hp units, and take more gold than opponent until you can out recruit and crush them. Also, to mix it up and occasionally send footpad to village hoping for dodging for a few turns and such. This can dramatically increase your effectiveness at holding during day or attack phase as the opponent will have to waste good time of day to recapture village and such if it works out.

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Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by holypaladin » February 2nd, 2018, 9:35 am

dwarfish fighters agains archers ,mages , spearmans.
dwarfish thundeders good agains calawrymans , riders , spermans, ogres , mermans.
dwarfish scouts fight in moutains and hills
gryphon riders finish enemies
thiefs use backstabing or later poison
other bandis also can be use
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UK1
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Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by UK1 » February 9th, 2018, 8:39 pm

Krogen wrote:That someone was probably me, i said it somewhere not long ago.
In short, Loyalists vs Knalgans is the worst matchup ever,
I would say Undead mirror because it's just torture.
because Loyalists have a decisive advantage against the Knalgans. The main reason is that the Knalgans can't attack properly. The Loyalists will decide when and where the battle takes place, and the opponent can only answer to that.
I absolutely do not buy this. The same is said about Drakes v. Undead especially, but can be said about Drakes v. Anyone. are Drakes impossible to beat? Of course not.
Loyalists will rule the map. Both sides has 2 scout-like units: Horseman+Cavalryman vs Footpad+Gryphon Rider. Both in cost-effectiveness and actual power, the horses will dominate the birds and pads. Which means instantly after the start, the Knalgans are pushed back, they have to go defensive.
You're making a LOT of assumptions here. First of all, scouts are generally not good as breakers. Put a dorf on a hill or, heaven forbid, a mountain and he's pretty rock solid. Poachers and thunderers are also very solid anti-cav. If you have nothing but cav you're going to get shrekt. If you have your cav charge ahead and confront the entire enemy army a turn away from any support, you're going to get shrket.
Even if the defense is proper and the Loyals can't just run them over at second day, the dwarves with 4 or 5 mp will not be quick enough to launch a counter-attack during the night.
This is why they are called *Knalgans* and not *Dwarves*. You need other units mixed in. And to launch an effective counter you don't necessarily need to kill their units. If you take no losses and steal some income from them and can replicate that a few times, you can quite easily win. Plus I don't know what world in which you can have a sizeable clash and then one side can just decide "Nope, it's over, I'm leaving." with the other side doing nothing to stop them. ZOCing ONE loyalist unit would force them to let it die if they wanted to retreat. And doing that at 2d is realistic.

In reality it's difficult to retreat totally out of range of an enemy if you're fighting them. Usually you won't be able to retreat unscathed. If the Knalgans have a poacher, footpad, and gryphon (which they damn well should) they can definitely catch up to you.
The Loys will just retreat a bit and return next day all the same, probably supported by Mages by then. And Mages will break the line.
You keep making assumption after assumption in favor of the loys.
Even in positioning before the battle the Loyalists are far better. They have these powerful horses with 8 and 9 mp. Even their core, the Spearman is quicker than most of the dwarvish forces.
And far less tough and soaky.
The outlaws can actually keep up with them, but they are not powerful enough to withstand an attack.
They don't have to be. If you're using them that way you're using them wrong. All you have to do is use these quicker units to trap one or two loys at dusk and the dorfs and co. are one turn behind. Use the outlaws to set up the pins, the dorfs knock them down. You're also doing the poacher a disservice imo. It's a good unit.
Retreating isn't a good option either. Loys will just take the vills the Knalgans gave them and sit there.
How come this is an option for loys when they retreat but not Knalgans? Again you're giving a bunch of assumptions in favor of the loys and against the knalgans.
Knalgans are horrible in retaking villages.
This is just false. You don't need magic to retake villages. If you can get four slots on a village you can take it from most units with a combination of four units as Knalgans. Or if you can get three slots you can do it in two turns. If you can't get three or four slots, you should be killing a different unit. Killing units is just as important as taking villages.
Most of the time, the Knalgans will die a slow death. Only serious luck or fatal mistakes from the opponent can turn the tide.
This is just false.
Probably the most popular counter-argument is that Knalgans can go HODOR, problem solved, they can go offensive. And it's actually true, outlaws are quick and cheap enough for a good rush, they can gain enough advantage first night. But in competitive matches it's usually Random vs Random. And a good HODOR rush starts at turn 1, which means you have to know from the start what your opponent can bring to the table, to counter Loyalists. And let's say the opponent didn't get Loyalists, he got Northerners. End of story, you are doomed.
I actually think HODOR is overrated. I think its proponents do one or several of these things:

1: Specifically target worse opponents.

2: Advertise when they win, sweep under the rug when they lose.

3: When they sense they're losing, they break the HODOR strategy. If they win they can give credit to HODOR, if they lose they can say it's because they stopped HODORING.
To me, it's not a solution to go HODOR from turn 1 because MAYBE the opponent got Loyalists. You can counter one problem, but cause another, probably even bigger one.
Well loys aren't even the faction it's supposed to be best against.

That's my opinion about Loyalists vs Knalgans. And unfortunately i don't even have a good idea about any solutions.
My opinion is that it's selection bias. I think you like Knalgans and have lost a few games to loys or not struck the strategy to beat them with Knalgans and now Knalgans are hopeless against loys.

I'll end by saying that I genuinely do not enjoy playing Knalgans. Avoid them like the plague. Nowadays the only faction I actually enjoy playing is Undead. And I think Knalgans vs. Undead does have some genuine concerns (one of which was at least PARTLY addressed with a debuff a while back to the Footie) but it's not super game breaking. And it's a small price to pay for playing the only faction I like. Life is too short to play factions you hate playing.

I'm not sure I see this problem of UD being OP v Knalga that other players are referencing. Used to be Knalga could just phone it in, spam footies, and clean up completely. Nerfing the footie slightly vs. cold helped a bit, but the bat nerf was downright stupid and I will complain about it vociferously given any opportunity. It objectively handicapped Undead on 1v1 maps.
"Hey you, bats should be nerfed."
"Why?"
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Krogen
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Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by Krogen » February 10th, 2018, 12:59 am

https://i.imgflip.com/2360tj.jpg
I wonder if your comment even worths an answer. You clearly don't have any experience in top level 1v1, but since you typed a lot, it shouldn't be ignored. Anyways, thank you for it, i laughed a lot.
Knalgans vs Loyalists being super bad is the only thing 95% of the currently active Ladder population agrees about. I advise you to watch some games between GOOD players in this matchup.
UD vs Knalga is not that bad as most people make it look like, that's the only part i can agree with.
"A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep." - Tywin Lannister

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Elder2
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Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by Elder2 » February 10th, 2018, 2:02 am

I personally think his response was good and I liked his points, I like such comments of non ladder/low ladder rated players, I always find them entertaining to read.

UK1
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Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by UK1 » February 10th, 2018, 5:58 pm

Krogen wrote:https://i.imgflip.com/2360tj.jpg
I wonder if your comment even worths an answer. You clearly don't have any experience in top level 1v1, but since you typed a lot, it shouldn't be ignored. Anyways, thank you for it, i laughed a lot.
Knalgans vs Loyalists being super bad is the only thing 95% of the currently active Ladder population agrees about. I advise you to watch some games between GOOD players in this matchup.
UD vs Knalga is not that bad as most people make it look like, that's the only part i can agree with.
Oh, SPARE me.

Do you deny that you made these assumptions in favor of loys and against Knalgans? I'll quote you:

The Loys will just retreat a bit and return next day all the same,
LOOK. You don't mention the villages. Retreating is fine even if you give up villages, right?

Now look when you mention the Knalgans:
Retreating isn't a good option either. Loys will just take the vills the Knalgans gave them and sit there. Knalgans are horrible in retaking villages.
Suddenly VILLAGES are a thing and they're important and you can't give them up. For what it's worth, Knalgans are also quite good at KEEPING villages a la guardsman. Without going into the fact that if you chase an opponent away from his villages you may not want to keep them, just deprive them of the income for those turns and then try and do the same thing next cycle.

"Anyone who disagrees with me as an inexperienced idiot. You can tell because they disagree with me."

Nice.
"Hey you, bats should be nerfed."
"Why?"
"Because I lost a game to bat swarm and I'm bitterUhm... clarity... and... consistency? Yeah yeah that sounds good. Clarity and consistency."
Do not. Nerf. The bat.

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