Knalgan vs Loyalists

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Krogen
Posts: 151
Joined: January 1st, 2013, 3:43 pm

Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by Krogen » February 10th, 2018, 6:13 pm

Really, play some games in this matchup, or just observe some, you'll see. You yourself said that you avoid Knalgans like plague and you don't like playing them. Now tell me, if that's the case then how can you have any insight in this?
I never called you idiot. You are just obviously not the player among us who specialized himself in wesnoth 1v1 for years and won an International Tournament.
"A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep." - Tywin Lannister

UK1
Posts: 118
Joined: January 4th, 2010, 7:34 pm

Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by UK1 » February 10th, 2018, 6:17 pm

Krogen wrote:Really, play some games in this matchup, or just observe some, you'll see. You yourself said that you avoid Knalgans like plague and you don't like playing them. Now tell me, if that's the case then how can you have any insight in this?
I never called you idiot. You are just obviously not the player who specialized himself in wesnoth 1v1 for years and won an International Tournament.
Because I've obviously played them in the past, many, many times. But recently I've taken the philosophy that I should only play what I enjoy. So that's what I do. This is just the newest flavor of "The factions are imbalanced." which is an argument that's been going on for over a decade. Granted this is a flavor I'd not seen in the years prior.

And winning a tournament or a battle doesn't make you correct. Otherwise there's no point having a discussion. Just duke it out in a battle, whoever wins is right. Logic doesn't matter anymore. Why even have the discussion? If you can end every argument saying "Look, I won a tournament. Ergo I'm right, you're wrong."

It's silly. You can still make points and arguments on their merits. If I won the tournament (sorry, International Tournament. Gotta add those caps) would you suddenly become wrong? And then if you won it after me would you become right again? That's not how logic works. Someone is right and someone is wrong irrespective of who wins tournaments (International Tournaments).
"Hey you, bats should be nerfed."
"Why?"
"Because I lost a game to bat swarm and I'm bitterUhm... clarity... and... consistency? Yeah yeah that sounds good. Clarity and consistency."
Do not. Nerf. The bat.

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Krogen
Posts: 151
Joined: January 1st, 2013, 3:43 pm

Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by Krogen » February 10th, 2018, 6:54 pm

No, but it means i know what i'm talking about and i actually have an idea about how the game and the matchups work. Yet you just told me your opinion in a very high-minded manner, like im some kind of an angry player who got destroyed in this matchup. No, im actually one of the strongest currently active 1v1 players. Im not the best, but noone can take me lightly. Respect me, and i'll respect you.
This is not the newest "Imbalanced matchup". That's a very naive point of view. This is the only thing 95% of the players agree about. Look at the Dragon Tournament running at moment. I don't think Knalgans won a single match against Loyalists, there are several replays there. Whenever this matchup comes up, the Knalgan player is like: "Well, shiiiit!", while the Loyalists: "Oh man, im sorry you got this matchup!" It's almost not even a real victory. Whenever i lose, i tend to blame myself even when it's not my fault. Thing is, if im convinced something is imbalanced it's because of the games i won... when i should've lost.
Now, i'll try to put this another way: It's beyond arguments that footpads and gryphons are the Knalgan scouts and cavalry and horse are the Loyalist ones. There is no random starting tod in a decent match, it starts with dawn. So both sides will take villages, scouts will face off, but there will be no real battles, unless some mistakes happen. Most of the forces will take villages, so if anything happens, that'll go down between the scouts. And here Loyalits are far superior. But let's say noone made mistakes, first night comes. Perfect opportunity for the Knalgans, right? Except that on a decent map, after the village grabbing they'll have no time to reach the enemy, unless they are all quick with 5 mp. And even if they do, spearman for 14 gold is the Loyalist core unit. There is a good chance there will be at least some resilient ones. If the Knalgans recruited expensive birds and dwarves, they'll not have the numbers to swarm the opponent. It's only possible if they build heavily on outlaws, which is not a great idea against random (they don't even have to go 100% outlaw). With roughly even numbers, backstab can be prevented easily. Going up against 60% defense with no magic, no marksman and with the Loyalist leader nearby (every Loy leader is a decent force, even at night) is almost always suicide. And if they move forward but don't attack, there is a good chance a fencer will zoc them, or faster cavs will catch up with them when they try to retreat as soon as dawn is near. So attacking as Knalgans at first night is extremely difficult and i don't think it's possible if the Loyalist plays properly.
Second day comes, Knalgans obviously will have to retreat, let's say they make it, despite the mobility difference. Cavs and the other Loyalist forces can just dance around them, looking for a whole in the defense, while the Knalgan forces will try to keep up with them. It's likely there will be a village defended only by outlaws, since dwarves are slow. And my main point is: the Loyalist will decide if there will be a battle or not. They can build up the situation and if it's not good, they don't attack. At second night it's the same as the first. Let's say Knalgans can gather themselves and the Loyalists didn't launch an attack. They'll be up against that nasty 60% again, and Loys will likely have a spearman at this point with more than 40 hp, meanwhile others are sitting at good terrain. But even if the Knalgans make it work, they build up a promising situation, cavalry will be able to distract them. Like ride to the other side of the map, and threaten undefended villages. Wait, i know what you'll say! The Knalgans can do the same with birds and pads! They might be able to win time with this, and Loyalists will not be able to attack because of that. Usually, the battle will not take place at first or second day, sometimes not even third. Players will constantly manouver around, trying to catch the opponent out of position. And the Loyalists dominate in that. In this battle of mobility, their superiority will make the difference.
Third day, mages will arrive and when they do, only Dwarvish Guardsman can hope to survive in a village at day, and even that'll be unlikely. And that's a totally defensive unit, which makes even harder to counterattack.
The problem is, Knalgan is a defensive faction, they rarely attack in any matchup. And that's fine in most scenarios. (However i still find it the least liked faction among the players.) But Loyalists are extremely effective at attacking Knalgan defenses with their huge damage. Look at other matchups. The usual strategy against Loyalist is to fight them at night. And because of their disadvantage in mobility, the Knalgans will not be able to do that or from a very bad situation.
"A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep." - Tywin Lannister

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Elder2
Posts: 353
Joined: July 11th, 2015, 2:13 pm

Re: Knalgan vs Loyalists

Post by Elder2 » February 10th, 2018, 7:21 pm

If I may ask, what is (or was) your elo on ladder UK1?

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