Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Britannicus » June 27th, 2017, 3:16 pm

Well, I finally managed it, without any units of value surviving... but whatever, at least I finally got it. Thanks for the help, I hope it gets a bit easier for me from here on out. :)
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby ElderofZion » June 27th, 2017, 3:25 pm

I just played through that scenario on hard, it is not really that hard, but you do need to be precise and not rush on the orc, use your ally units as meatshield during the night and attack during the day, and preferably use my recruit (probably the best one there is for this map). First attempt (i haven't played heir to the throne in ages), turn 9 win, 2 losses, 9 kills and 2 lvl 2s, you can get a lot of xp here. I think aside from some minor details at the end (it was possible to play it safer to not risk any units with xp dying, and, what I would do, get even more xp by dalaying finishing the scenario) it was probably the perfect play.
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby ElderofZion » June 27th, 2017, 3:37 pm

Bonus: no recruit turn 9 win XD easy
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Britannicus » June 27th, 2017, 5:43 pm

Alright, I think I'm taking a break for a week or so. I replayed The Elves Besieged again and it went pretty okay, finished turn 9 with a shaman and 2 fighters close-ish to leveling up and 50 bonus gold.

Then I played Blackwater Port and everything went pretty great until turn 9. At that point, my strategy rested on killing one Orc archer who was sitting in an open field at 4 HP. I had two fighters nearby who each needed less than 8 XP to level up. I attacked the archer with my first fighter, and he proceeded to miss all his 4 attacks against a 60% hit chance, an event with a chance of 2,56%. I was pretty annoyed at that point, but luckily I had a second fighter ready to strike! So I moved that one in and... he also missed all. 4. attacks. After my struggle with the first scenario and now having my second scenario ruined by an event with a probability of 0,066%, I'm just done right now.
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby ElderofZion » June 27th, 2017, 6:18 pm

Wow, can you upload the replay? This is an impressive wesnoth luck moment, I think I have never seen anything like that XD
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Britannicus » June 27th, 2017, 6:22 pm

Sorry, instantly ragequit when that happened. :/
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Sudipta » June 28th, 2017, 6:17 am

Britannicus wrote:Sorry, instantly ragequit when that happened. :/


I don't blame you. Some horrors are just too great for the human mind to withstand. That really is one outrageous event of bad luck. But, as a fellow player once said, if u give Wesnoth a 0.01% chance to bite you in the ass, it will find a way to do so.

Then again, did failing to kill this orc archer destroy your chances at victory ? Would it have led to the death of konrad or delfador ? Because if not, then u acted too rashly. These things happen in wesnoth. The flip side is that someday u will see a case where your level 3 unit is 1 hit away from death, and then it evades 8 attacks like that agent in The Matrix. If i were in your position i would be more awestruck than angry, having witnessed what is called "Divine Intervention" :whistle: I'm sure that orc sacrifices a portion of his food everyday to his demonic god. So he lived to fight another day.

Perhaps a break is the best option. U seem to be having an ominous cloud on your tail. Be careful when crossing the street. :lol:
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Britannicus » June 28th, 2017, 10:27 am

Sudipta wrote:Then again, did failing to kill this orc archer destroy your chances at victory ? Would it have led to the death of konrad or delfador ? Because if not, then u acted too rashly. These things happen in wesnoth. The flip side is that someday u will see a case where your level 3 unit is 1 hit away from death, and then it evades 8 attacks like that agent in The Matrix. If i were in your position i would be more awestruck than angry, having witnessed what is called "Divine Intervention" :whistle: I'm sure that orc sacrifices a portion of his food everyday to his demonic god. So he lived to fight another day.

Perhaps a break is the best option. U seem to be having an ominous cloud on your tail. Be careful when crossing the street. :lol:


No, I would probably still have won, but I would have almost certainly lost Haldric and one or two other units I really wanted to keep. And I just kind of have a problem with raging in games. :?

Yeah, that's true. When I was playing Northern Rebirth on Normal a few years back, I had an encounter that was probably at least unlikely as this one. A peasant in the first scenario was attacked by 4 or 5 orcs and was already at 3 HP before. One after the other, they attacked and missed him, and he survived (to die the next round). After that, I considered sacrifices to a few deities myself.

Edit: Alright, being the idiot that I am, I made up my mind to take a break, only to go have another try at it straight away. And this time... well, I'm really happy with how it turned out! I played extremely defensively in the beginning, sticking to the river, then strategically sacrificed two fighters, picked off a few kills and actually managed to get a druid while finishing on turn 9 with 57 bonus gold! Thank you guys so much for your tips and support, maybe all hope is not lost for me. :D
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Sudipta » June 29th, 2017, 6:21 am

Well done. I knew u could do it. And now u have a druid too so u can heal your units making scenarios that much easier. On hard difficulty unit rotation is more important than ever so use her wisely. Get a second druid or white mage too so that if one dies u don't go off the rails and punch in your screen ;)

There's a Robin Williams quote which applies perfectly in hard/nightmare difficulty BfW
There's no shame in failing. The only shame is not giving things your best shot
.

RNG can potentially mess up a good play, but try to plan out your moves and make as few mistakes as possible. Even after 7 years i still stick around here because few things can give as much mental satisfaction as a near perfect play on a difficult scenario.
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Britannicus » June 29th, 2017, 9:05 am

Sudipta wrote:Well done. I knew u could do it. And now u have a druid too so u can heal your units making scenarios that much easier. On hard difficulty unit rotation is more important than ever so use her wisely. Get a second druid or white mage too so that if one dies u don't go off the rails and punch in your screen ;)

There's a Robin Williams quote which applies perfectly in hard/nightmare difficulty BfW
There's no shame in failing. The only shame is not giving things your best shot
.

RNG can potentially mess up a good play, but try to plan out your moves and make as few mistakes as possible. Even after 7 years i still stick around here because few things can give as much mental satisfaction as a near perfect play on a difficult scenario.


Thanks! Yeah, I've learned that by now. Challenging without any Save-loading really doesn't compare to Normal with a little bit of loading. Like, at all. :D

After not being able to play Blackwater Port the way I wanted, I did actually take a break... just from HttT though. I've been playing DiD, also on Challening, and to me, it's just a walk in the park compared to the HttT scenarios... which is weird, since Elves used to be my favourite faction. :hmm: Ah well!
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Britannicus » July 3rd, 2017, 8:28 am

Alright, I'm back for some more advice, I guess!

I have now made it to SoE and tried it quite a few times by now, but I just can't do it without overwhelming losses. I think my recall list is decent, but I did badly on BoP, so I start with only 211 gold.

I've tried out lots of strategies, fighting on the river bank, pushing the bridge, sending a few riders east to flank the town, defending all the way in the south-east... so far, nothing seems to work.

Do you have any tips that might help me beat the scenario? Or should I go back to BoP and go for a quicker finish?

Starting save is attached!
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby ElderofZion » July 3rd, 2017, 10:05 am

It was pretty hard to finish this from your save, at the end i had just 2 turns left, after loading once I managed to do it. I lost 4 lvl 2s i think, but these were weak outlaw, lvl 2 thief, elf captain (not that useful later in the game) and elf hero. The thing is that with your units defending against orcs or even undead is very challenging and at the start you need to retreat deep and defend at your initial castle to not lose a lot of units. The way to remedy this would be to get more elf heroes in the previous scenarios, or even better - elf masters. Elves, unlike loyalists and dwarves are not resilient enough to reliably defend against high level units, elf heroes in forests stand a good chance of dying being attacked by 3 lvl 2 orc soldiers at night. But you got to make with what you have, elf heroes are way better at defending than outlaws or thieves, these units i consider weak in campaigns and I would advise using them with caution, or, well, if need be sacrificing them as cannon fodder, that is what I would do and what i did with one weak lvl 2 outlaw in the replay, they just do not have either the damage or hp. The strong and resilient knights were very good, they deal a lot of damage and are decent at holding the line, but they may take a lot of damage, also to charge with them without risk you need good cover for them, which again, requires sresilient, standard, workhorse units like elf hero.

So i guess what you should be doing is retreat like i did and then counterattack, that is the best way to use your units.
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Sudipta » July 3rd, 2017, 12:29 pm

I had a feeling you would return for this mission. Its the famous newbie crusher mission in BfW :lol: , and in hard without a decent army and gold, it can actually be a real challenge. I loaded your file and saw your campaign stats. They were sub-par to be honest. Not only are u starting with less than optimal amount of gold, but more importantly your army isn't very good.You have only 14 advancements till now and several of them are a waste of XP. Your only elven rider died a while back, and he took a ton of xp with him. Nor do u have any lv 3 units. How come u don't have a single sorceress ? Makes me wonder what u were doing the first five scenarios.

Usually, i blow through this scenario with my Lv 3 Marshal with marksmen and knights to kill orcs, and sorceresses and mages to kill the undead. A quick attack with a largely
veteran force mixed with some fodder can be used to take the city at around the same time the undead army reaches it. So ideally by the time u fight the undead, the orcs are history and its a simple matter of defending the undead assault in the city and then cleaning up the necromancer with several turns to spare. This strategy does not seem feasible with your starting conditions though.

Normally i would play with your save and attach a replay but currently i'm busy nearing the end of my favorite trilogy so i cant help you bud. :whistle: I'm sure some others will do it, like elderofzion did. My suggestion is just complete the scenario and move on, accepting whatever losses unless its too great. The price of a rebellion is blood, after all. There are many breather scenarios later which will allow u to replenish your ranks with new veterans. Good Luck !
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Mint » July 3rd, 2017, 1:38 pm

My attempt here. First try, 8 turns to spare. Might have been 4-6 turns to spare if I was not rushing in recklessly at the end.

I only recalled the loyal white and red magi, a knight and the near levelled druid. I didn't recall anything else since I needed the gold for the elf fighter sacrifices. :lol:

Basically what I'd do is camp the forest line (17,38) with level 1 elf fighters to begin with, and maybe put one on flat on say (18,38) to bait some orcs in to attack. Smash some units, slow the remaining level 2 orcs and throw those poor, helpless fighters in as meat shields. :twisted: Knights and horsemen are your best friends against orcs.

I'd take the infiltrate and not the reinforce option for the thieves as their spawn point is better on the left, and they draw away a couple of orcs which makes charging through the middle a bit easier. I made a ton of risky moves with the loyal thieves as they aren't great units to recall later, so it doesn't matter much if they die.

After this, you basically aim to rush down the orc leader and take the keep before the skeletons hit you. I got Konrad to level 3 on the orcs to make this less luck reliant. Trying to infiltrate from the sides is a waste of time, as you won't clear the orc leader in time to recruit.
If you manage that, put up some more elf fighters as sacrificial lambs and it's free sailing from there. You probably want to feed as much xp as possible to the two loyal magi or the loyal knight. Probably the highest priority is Moremiru since he can tank some hits and has illuminates at level 3.


As a side note, level some shamans into sorceresses. They're the best ranged units for this campaign.
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Britannicus » July 3rd, 2017, 8:12 pm

Thank you guys very much for the help! :)

However, I've decided to give HttT a rest for now and play a few other campaigns first. For some reason, DiD on Challenging was an absolute walk in the park compared to HttT... difficulty levels in Wesnoth still very much confuse me. :hmm:
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