Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

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Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Britannicus » June 26th, 2017, 1:26 pm

Hey everyone, I first started playing BfW a few years back and loved it. I finished all Mainline campaigns, first on easy, then again on Medium. A few days ago, I felt the urge again, but for an additional challenge, I started playing on Hard as well as stopping save-loading.

Well...

I got crushed on The Elves Besieged.. I don't know... 15 times in a row? I just found no openings to sneak Konrad through, no matter how I distributed my troops to try and distract the enemy, he always sent several Lvl 2 units to hunt him down and block him. I tried everything in the official Walkthrough and more, but I just can't handle it.

Then I tried The South Guard, which went pretty smoothly until The Vale of Tears, where I am once again stuck. I've had some terrible luck, lots of enemies hitting 3/3 on 40% chances, but still...

Are the harder difficulties supposed to be this much harder? Or do I just need to get back into the game?

For reference, I finished NR and SotBE on Normal with minimal losses and little to no save-loading.
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Velensk » June 26th, 2017, 2:10 pm

Games AI has gotten somewhat better but in general I expect you just need to get back into it. Elves Besieged on Hard in HttT shouldn't be daunting. I don't know what the walkthrough says, but there's no reason to sneak Konrad through, just cut down anyone in your way. Lvl 2s fall to lightning, shamans or sufficient massed damage.

I will say that Hard is significantly more challenging than normal in all cases.
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Britannicus » June 26th, 2017, 2:28 pm

Velensk wrote:Games AI has gotten somewhat better but in general I expect you just need to get back into it. Elves Besieged on Hard in HttT shouldn't be daunting. I don't know what the walkthrough says, but there's no reason to sneak Konrad through, just cut down anyone in your way. Lvl 2s fall to lightning, shamans or sufficient massed damage.

I will say that Hard is significantly more challenging than normal in all cases.


Yeah, I noticed enemies being a lot smarter than I remembered. Alright, after I finish The South Guard I'll give it another try.
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Britannicus » June 27th, 2017, 10:38 am

Alright, I managed to finish The South Guard, and once I got back into it, it was actually quite easy.

However, I'm still completely lost on The Elves Besieged. How is this scenario supposed to be played on Hard?

I tried making a run for it (like the Walkthrough suggests), sending all troops and Delfador straight North as a diversion while Konrad and a fighter sneak along the Western border of the map. However, the enemy always sent 4-5 Lvl 2s to kill him.

I tried fighting with a lot of different approaches. Rush everyone to the left, then cut a way North. Immediatly shut down by the enemy sending all his units that way and there being a wall of Lvl 2s three hexes thick. Plus, the... unusual... turn order lead to my "allies" stealing almost every kill as well as blocking 3/4 of important hexes. Is there any reason for this change in turn order? Because it is incredibly frustrating and annoying.

Splitting my force didn't work either, as soon as some of my troops moved an inch East, the trolls would come swarm them and it's over.

It might be worth mentioning that on all these attempts, I had stats of around -25% dealt/+25% received. Could the way I play the scenario work and I just need to repeat it until I get a run that's not as damn unlucky?
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby zookeeper » June 27th, 2017, 11:08 am

I can see how it might be somewhat dependant on luck, but nevertheless, I did manage to narrowly get Konrad through on my first attempt. Although it was largely thanks to the AI.

The turn order has always been the same, though, no change there. Arguably it can be a bit annoying, but if the allies acted before enemies, then you might end up with situations where your allies move in unexpected ways, leaving your vulnerable units exposed to the enemies, which would probably be even more annoying. Still, the AI customization options are pretty great now so it's possible the allies could be made to shield the player's units much more effectively.
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Britannicus » June 27th, 2017, 11:28 am

zookeeper wrote:I can see how it might be somewhat dependant on luck, but nevertheless, I did manage to narrowly get Konrad through on my first attempt. Although it was largely thanks to the AI.

The turn order has always been the same, though, no change there. Arguably it can be a bit annoying, but if the allies acted before enemies, then you might end up with situations where your allies move in unexpected ways, leaving your vulnerable units exposed to the enemies, which would probably be even more annoying. Still, the AI customization options are pretty great now so it's possible the allies could be made to shield the player's units much more effectively.


Alright, I played a strategy that was pretty much identical to yours several times. The problem is both my western ally and the western enemy positioning their troops right at the edge of the map, making it impossible to get through, not matter how I position or spread my troops...
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Sudipta » June 27th, 2017, 11:59 am

Not sure what all the fuss is about. I replayed the scenario and managed to pass it on the first try. I even killed one of the orc leaders for good measure. :lol: and managed to to gain two rangers and a captain. Replay file attached. I used the straightforward approach recruiting 3 archers, 2 fighters and 1 shaman and then rushed north west. One thing to note is that it takes 8 turns to move Konrad from start castle to the destination with unhindered movement, so theres no need to rush blindly into battle. Time your movement with your allies and make use of their heroic nature to protect yourself. I didnt lose any of the important units and only fought the enemies which were blocking my way except towards the end, when i was farming ;) Konrad is a wimp so don't risk him fighting anyone. Hope this helps.

HttT - Scenario 1 - Hard Difficulty - No Save/loading
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Britannicus » June 27th, 2017, 12:13 pm

Sudipta wrote:Not sure what all the fuss is about. I replayed the scenario and managed to pass it on the first try. I even killed one of the orc leaders for good measure. :lol: and managed to to gain two rangers and a captain. Replay file attached. I used the straightforward approach recruiting 3 archers, 2 fighters and 1 shaman and then rushed north west. One thing to note is that it takes 8 turns to move Konrad from start castle to the destination with unhindered movement, so theres no need to rush blindly into battle. Time your movement with your allies and make use of their heroic nature to protect yourself. I didnt lose any of the important units and only fought the enemies which were blocking my way except towards the end, when i was farming ;) Konrad is a wimp so don't risk him fighting anyone. Hope this helps.

HttT - Scenario 1 - Hard Difficulty - No Save/loading


Alright, maybe letting the allies rush in even more might help. Thanks for the tip and the replay, although I have to add you had a lot of lucky encounters and -17% Dmg taken overall. ;)
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Sudipta » June 27th, 2017, 12:24 pm

Britannicus wrote:Alright, maybe letting the allies rush in even more might help. Thanks for the tip and the replay, although I have to add you had a lot of lucky encounters and -17% Dmg taken overall. ;)


Hmm, well in short scenarios like these the luck factor is more visible since there isn't enough time/fighting for the stats to balance out. The only lucky part i felt was delfador hitting the orc boss 4/4 times. It wouldnt have made any diffrence if those encounters were unluckier. The end result would have been the same. If i had gotten negative luck in the scenario the i would have played more evasively that's all. And I would have had more trouble killing the orc leader.

The only thing to note is to capitalize on your allies, make use of ToD and not bite off more than u can chew. I only fought the green orcs the whole scenario and avoided the other ones. One would have to be nuts to go up against those Lv 3 Troll Warriors.. Seeing them reminds me of that final scenario in Scepter of Fire :whistle:

Best of luck for your playthrough.
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Britannicus » June 27th, 2017, 1:16 pm

I just don't get it... I played another 10 attempts or so, and in all of them, my Damage inflicted was -15% or lower, while taken was always positive, if as little as 1%. Is this deliberate on Challenging? Because it is getting kind of silly.

Is there a way to post "replays" of scenarios you lost? Because I would really like some more advice. :/

Nvm, found it!
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Sudipta » June 27th, 2017, 1:55 pm

I cant load your replay. Says its corrupt. What version of wesnoth are u playing ?

Difficulty level has no impact on damage taken/received. That is entirely dependent on RNG//Luck. I don't really know what else to tell u except the baby stuff which i don't want to since u said it yourself that u have been playing wesnoth for a few years at least.

My advice- instead of playing 20+ attempts, Focus on a single attempt. I'm sure you are making mistakes due to impatience and frustration. Take an hour to chill, watch some netflix or read some memes and then give one dedicated effort. Play defensive. Engage as little as possible and take cover behind your allies. Sacrifice your units when necessary, move konrad carefully to the edge of the map and use delfador to fry any enemy that gets too close. Make a defensive wall to shield konrad and delfador. Just pass this scenario somehow and focus on troop training etc. from the next scenario onwards. Like Chantal said "RUN" !! Like Delfador said "Don't Look Back" !! 8)
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby zookeeper » June 27th, 2017, 2:00 pm

Britannicus wrote:I just don't get it... I played another 10 attempts or so, and in all of them, my Damage inflicted was -15% or lower, while taken was always positive, if as little as 1%. Is this deliberate on Challenging?

No, if that happens then it's simply bad luck. The odds of consistently having -15% or lower inflicted damage in 10 attempts in a row sounds rather too unlikely, though.

In any case, I think that at least on turn 8 you made the mistake of not just taking everyone to shield Konrad. Delfador could have safely went to heal in the village or with Konrad (in case you need to blast a lone enemy out of the way), and the elves all be made to shield them. However, you took Delfador southwest and used 3 elves to attack enemies which could have never been able to catch up with Konrad nor Delfador anyway. Finally, even on turn 9 you could have still tried to trap the assassin to prevent it from blocking Konrad from the signpost, which you didn't attempt. It may or may not have worked, but it would have greatly increased your odds at that point.

I would attach a replay of how I picked up from your turn 8 and finished, but the resulting replay ended up very broken.
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby ElderofZion » June 27th, 2017, 2:00 pm

ai got smarter
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Britannicus » June 27th, 2017, 2:50 pm

Thank you guys for the replies and for trying to help me, even though I'm beginning to fear I'm just a lost cause. :?

Sudipta wrote:I cant load your replay. Says its corrupt. What version of wesnoth are u playing ?

Difficulty level has no impact on damage taken/received. That is entirely dependent on RNG//Luck. I don't really know what else to tell u except the baby stuff which i don't want to since u said it yourself that u have been playing wesnoth for a few years at least.

My advice- instead of playing 20+ attempts, Focus on a single attempt. I'm sure you are making mistakes due to impatience and frustration. Take an hour to chill, watch some netflix or read some memes and then give one dedicated effort. Play defensive. Engage as little as possible and take cover behind your allies. Sacrifice your units when necessary, move konrad carefully to the edge of the map and use delfador to fry any enemy that gets too close. Make a defensive wall to shield konrad and delfador. Just pass this scenario somehow and focus on troop training etc. from the next scenario onwards. Like Chantal said "RUN" !! Like Delfador said "Don't Look Back" !! 8)


Ah, right, I'm playing 12.6, sorry. About that: I read there can be performance issues with the 13.x versions, is that true? And if yes, how severe are they?

Yeah, a break sounds good... I'm gonna give it another try in a few hours, and if that doesn't work, I'm considering playing one or two campaigns on normal to get back into the game, then give challenging another try. Thanks for the help. :)

zookeeper wrote:In any case, I think that at least on turn 8 you made the mistake of not just taking everyone to shield Konrad. Delfador could have safely went to heal in the village or with Konrad (in case you need to blast a lone enemy out of the way), and the elves all be made to shield them. However, you took Delfador southwest and used 3 elves to attack enemies which could have never been able to catch up with Konrad nor Delfador anyway. Finally, even on turn 9 you could have still tried to trap the assassin to prevent it from blocking Konrad from the signpost, which you didn't attempt. It may or may not have worked, but it would have greatly increased your odds at that point.


Hmm, alright. Thanks for the help, I may not have been focused enough on just shielding Konrad and getting him to the signpost.
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Re: Did the game get harder or do I need to git gud?

Postby Velensk » June 27th, 2017, 2:57 pm

One of the signs that Wesnoth is a true tactics game as opposed to just being a Strategy game is that even taking the exact same approach to winning, different players will fare differently. A skilled player will make the micro decisions that manage their odds and resources better.

Of course I say that, and when I went to replay this to provide you with a replay I failed in my favored approach rather effectively. I did still pull a win without too much difficulty but this is no real demonstration of cutting through the orcish ranks. It is a good demonstration that even if your luck isn't good you can still make it out with some gold.
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