Multiplayer Replay Analysis

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Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Postby Velensk » January 28th, 2014, 6:05 pm

This is a thread for posting replays to be analysed so that you can hear what experienced players have to say about your play and to help you improve. The following are the guidelines for such.

For Posting Replays
-Only post games in which you played.
-Be specific about the help you want.
-You will be critiqued, so don't be defensive.
-Don't post games to demonstrate your skill.

For Analyzing Replays
-If you need to provide a disclaimer about your skills, avoid posting
-When you point out a mistake, explain what would have been better.
-Focus on the specific help that was asked for.
-Teach principles instead of getting bogged down in details.
-All feedback should be directed at the original poster, not other players.
-Be aware that some choices are based on style and may not be wrong.
-Look at examples of past commentaries for examples of how to do it
Last edited by Velensk on June 16th, 2014, 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Postby Turuk » January 28th, 2014, 7:43 pm

I think this is a good idea to help players, both in learning from mistakes they made as well as going them the chance to watch players at a much higher level to learn their strategies and tricks.

Would you be willing to write the opening post, as well as whatever guidelines might be needed? I know we have the posting guidelines for general behavior, but, as you noted, this has the potential to generate rants and frustration over critique. I would be wiling to help in enforcement of any measures you could not handle yourself.
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Postby Velensk » January 28th, 2014, 9:23 pm

The following is what I've got at the moment. After feedback is acquired and used this first part can be deleted and this post could be split to it's own thread.

This is a place for anyone to post replays which they want other people to look over and critique for them. The idea behind this is that players both new and experianced can get feedback on how they did and what they might have done differently or improved. This can be a good way to develop a sound understanding of the practical application of stratagy to play. We encourage anyone who is struggling with the game in general or any particular match-up to post replays of them playing so that the community can help them improve. Alternatively you might find it instructive to download games and go through it while reading the analysis.

To help keep the atmosphere productive we request that those who participate follow these guidelines:
For posting replays
-Do not post games in which you did not particpate without getting permission from the players.
-You can improve the feedback you get by being specific about what you're looking for help with.
-Avoid being defensive of your responce. Not everyone who analyses your replay might know what they're talking about and Wesnoth allows for distinct differences in style however you did post it looking for what people have to say and if you can avoid being blinded by pride you can always learn quite a bit from others players.
-This is not a place to post replays where you have won just so that you can be praised or show off. This is a place to improve your game and generally games where you lose tend to be more useful to you. If you do post a game where you win be specific on what kind of help you want.
>Don't be shy! There's a great deal to learn and nobodies going to look down on you for not knowing it all yet.

For Analysising replays
-Be constructive in your feedback. Do not just say that a move is a mistake, indicate what they could have done better.
-If a person asks for a specific kind of help, focus on that problem.
-Teach principles where possible. Replay analysis tends to lend itself to a lot of nit-picky specifics which bear worth noting especially in higher level games but when you can wrap a lot of advice into a generally applicable principle that will help favor that approach.
-Avoid critiquing players other than the posting player unless an explanation of what they are doing will help the posting player.
-Be aware that there are differences in style and that a choice one player makes may not be wrong even though you'd never make it. This does not mean that you shouldn't point such things out in your critique but be careful how you phrase it and give reasons. (For example you might say: I wouldn't suggest getting heavy infantry against rebels because you want your army to be mobile and even when you get into the fighting heavy infantry have a tendancy to be slowed down by shamans and pounded by woses; or on a stylisitc note, I don't find heavy infantry pull their weight against rebels; as opposed to just telling someone that it's a mistake to recuit heavy infantry against rebels.
-To the best of your ability, know what you're talking about. If you feel the need to include a disclaimer that you arn't really good at multiplayer or something similar it may be better not to post.
>We're doing this to strengthen the community and provide ourselves with more skilled opponents. Be civil, be constructive, don't scare away those who're sincerely trying to improve.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Postby max_torch » January 29th, 2014, 1:45 am

I think this thread could use a link to one of the wesnoth replay channels in youtube
Last edited by max_torch on January 30th, 2014, 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Postby Turuk » January 29th, 2014, 12:33 pm

Velensk wrote:For posting replays

For Analysising replays


These are all great points/guidelines for behavior. I would perhaps compress them as much as possible to read as quick bullet points, in an effort to make sure players actually read through all of them. I took a stab at it below in order to better explain my suggestion.


Rules:

Spoiler:
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Postby Velensk » January 30th, 2014, 1:20 am

I like the way you've organised and phrased it though I think that it would probably be better to not require that permission be gained for every replay. Of course it is simpler to say that than to try to specify tact for when it's not a good idea to post a replay because of something your opponent did.

I think it would also be a good idea to duplicate the link to the commented replay list in the stratagy resources.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Postby iceiceice » January 30th, 2014, 4:16 am

Velensk wrote:I think it would also be a good idea to duplicate the link to the commented replay list in the stratagy resources.


Are there any *commentated* replays other than those on Nekis channel? http://www.youtube.com/user/Nekisbrutalwesnoth
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Postby Velensk » January 30th, 2014, 4:34 am

viewtopic.php?t=32982

Contains many replays not commentated by neki. Though, not in the form that you may be used to. There are some where the game is commented on in chat by the players playing. There are also quite a few of mine in the style I prefer where rather than using a video I just go through the replay turn by turn in the thread trusting that the player will go through it in their own game at whatever rate they prefer.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Postby HaChol » January 30th, 2014, 6:22 am

Would my thought be productive, to restrict the discussion channel for savegame replay analysis to standard maps only?? Or - dedicate one channel to discussion of standard map games and another for discussion of all the rest? Just my thought so far.
Why (?) - should be obvious.
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Postby Turuk » January 30th, 2014, 2:32 pm

Velensk wrote:I like the way you've organised and phrased it though I think that it would probably be better to not require that permission be gained for every replay. Of course it is simpler to say that than to try to specify tact for when it's not a good idea to post a replay because of something your opponent did.


That's a good point, as players won't always be able to get permission from everyone in a match if they can't seem to reach them again. I could change it to:

-Do not post games in which you did not participate

As far as posting a replay because of something your opponent did, the last point should cover that:

-This is not a place to post replays where you have won just so that you can be praised or show off....

Velensk wrote:I think it would also be a good idea to duplicate the link to the commented replay list in the stratagy resources.


How should this be included? Here are replays with helpful commentary in the style that we expect players to offer in this thread?
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Postby Velensk » January 30th, 2014, 2:42 pm

I would phrase it, Here are some examples of past commentaries that can be used as a guide.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Postby Turuk » January 30th, 2014, 3:04 pm

I made the above changes and put the altered version below:

Rules:

Spoiler:
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Postby Velensk » January 30th, 2014, 5:26 pm

Looks good to me.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Postby 8680 » February 2nd, 2014, 10:54 pm

My attempt at a rules draft:
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Postby Turuk » February 3rd, 2014, 12:41 am

A few notes below with my comments in italics:


Please do not post replays of games in which you did not participate. [Does “participate” include being an observer?]
This can be changed to "...in which you were not player."

To improve feedback, be specific about what you want help with.
This was structured originally to avoid ending a sentence with a preposition.

If you don’t feel up for being criticized, don’t post your replays.
[Something about different people having different play-styles. I don’t know where Velensk or Turuk were going with this.]
It was written that way to address the fact that there is not always one solution to a situation, so what one person might do differently does not mean that the poster did anything wrong. That was combined with the note about not being defensive to inform players to take all comments from others with a grain of salt.

Don’t post replays to self-aggrandize or boast, to show how great a player you are — post replays out of a desire to become a better player.
I really like how you stated this.

We’re nice; don’t fear being belittled or derided for your mistakes or inexperience. (If that does happen, please report it.)
I like your phrasing on this as well.

2. When analyzing replays…
Be a reasonably experienced multiplayer player — if you feel that you should note that you’re not good at multiplayer or that you’re unsure about your feedback, then learn enough to be confident about your advice before giving it.
I see how this fits down in this category, but I had moved it to the top as it seems to serve as a disclaimer.

Criticize constructively — don’t point out only mistakes, but also how the player could improve.
I would have this as "...don't only point out mistakes, offer solutions for them."

Focus on the issues with which the player specifically requested help, if any.
I like it.

Teach general principles — don’t be overly focused on the details.
You are a lover of the —.

Don’t critique players other than the one whose replay you’re currently analyzing, unless necessary to explain feedback to that player.
This is indeed better wording.

Different players have different styles — don’t present a choice as wrong merely because it’s not the one you’d have made, but rather explain why you wouldn’t have made it.
Ditto.


Thanks for the help in rewording Numbers, I appreciate the work you do, as always.
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