What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era?

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WesnothNewbie
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by WesnothNewbie » October 30th, 2012, 11:14 am

Lord-Knightmare wrote:The Worst unit in the default era is none other than the lieutenant. Its weak and low HP, I remember killing in one with a horseman...
I agree. I always keep my hero safe away from the battlefield when fighting multiplayer, and I go for the toughest hero available to me. Since I keep my hero behind the lines, leadership is of little use to me. Leadership does help in campaigns though.
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by Lord-Knightmare » October 30th, 2012, 3:10 pm

WesnothNewbie wrote:
Lord-Knightmare wrote:The Worst unit in the default era is none other than the lieutenant. Its weak and low HP, I remember killing in one with a horseman...
I agree. I always keep my hero safe away from the battlefield when fighting multiplayer, and I go for the toughest hero available to me. Since I keep my hero behind the lines, leadership is of little use to me. Leadership does help in campaigns though.
They should remove the lieutenant from the faction leader list. The faction is better off without that one. Besides, the default era has factions which do not have a leader with the leadership ability and they are pretty balanced... So, why not add the loyalist in with them?

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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by TheScribe » October 30th, 2012, 3:58 pm

Lord-Knightmare wrote:They should remove the lieutenant from the faction leader list. The faction is better off without that one. Besides, the default era has factions which do not have a leader with the leadership ability and they are pretty balanced... So, why not add the loyalist in with them?
Some people, including me, like the Lieutenant as a leader. There's no reason for that choice to be removed. If you don't like it, just don't pick it.
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by Colouredbox » October 30th, 2012, 7:12 pm

TheScribe wrote:
Lord-Knightmare wrote:They should remove the lieutenant from the faction leader list. The faction is better off without that one. Besides, the default era has factions which do not have a leader with the leadership ability and they are pretty balanced... So, why not add the loyalist in with them?
Some people, including me, like the Lieutenant as a leader. There's no reason for that choice to be removed. If you don't like it, just don't pick it.
Because it's not op or anything. :lol2:
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by WARBOZZ » October 30th, 2012, 7:28 pm

Lord-Knightmare wrote:
WesnothNewbie wrote:I agree. I always keep my hero safe away from the battlefield when fighting multiplayer, and I go for the toughest hero available to me. Since I keep my hero behind the lines, leadership is of little use to me. Leadership does help in campaigns though.
They should remove the lieutenant from the faction leader list. The faction is better off without that one. Besides, the default era has factions which do not have a leader with the leadership ability and they are pretty balanced... So, why not add the loyalist in with them?
I find that tha Lieutenant's Leadership isn't very gud, myself. In normal games he ain't ever close enough to tha fightin, and in campaigns and defense-like games he getz out-leveled and useless pretty quick. White Mages or a gud Pikeman are better, cauze da one has healin that never gets outclassed and tha other is about as tough as leaders get.

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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by Huumy » October 30th, 2012, 8:42 pm

TheScribe wrote:
Lord-Knightmare wrote:They should remove the lieutenant from the faction leader list. The faction is better off without that one. Besides, the default era has factions which do not have a leader with the leadership ability and they are pretty balanced... So, why not add the loyalist in with them?
Some people, including me, like the Lieutenant as a leader. There's no reason for that choice to be removed. If you don't like it, just don't pick it.
Agreed, Lieutenant I think is the best leader for loyals :). Leadership and 6 Movement Points... I like that it has very low HP otherwise it's even more no-brainer to take it in default 1v1.
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by WesnothNewbie » October 30th, 2012, 9:06 pm

I find that tha Lieutenant's Leadership isn't very gud, myself. In normal games he ain't ever close enough to tha fightin, and in campaigns and defense-like games he getz out-leveled and useless pretty quick. White Mages or a gud Pikeman are better, cauze da one has healin that never gets outclassed and tha other is about as tough as leaders get.
Hang on, but isn't the swordsman actually tougher than the pikeman? Doesn't he have impact and blade resistances plus four extra HP?

Also, it'd be nice if you could stop using abbreviations and slang so much, it would make it easier to read your posts :wink:
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by WARBOZZ » October 30th, 2012, 10:04 pm

WesnothNewbie wrote:Hang on, but isn't the swordsman actually tougher than the pikeman? Doesn't he have impact and blade resistances plus four extra HP?
Ah, went to tha unit database cause I didn't remember tha specifics. Tha Swordsman and tha Pikeman both ave the same base HP; the Pikeman has more stab armor than the Swordsman but less chop and bash armor. If yer fightin more humans then ya should go fer tha Pikeman, but with most others tha Swordsman is going ta have better armor. Tha more ya know, eh?

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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by Mint » October 31st, 2012, 5:45 am

Huumy: I disagree. I find leadership on the leader unit isn't very good. You find yourself torn between using it for the leadershipping or recruiting... normally the fight is all over the place, some units here, some there. The worth of leadership is increased with the amount of units near the one who leads them, and to get good leadershipping in to all of those units often requires the lieutenant/captains/flares to be out of the keep for too many turns in a row. When it is used, the amount of turns between recruits is awful, you're often outnumbered even after being stronger and killing the enemies.
Lieutenant is nowhere near as good as the red mage, the usual no-brainer choice for a loyalist leader. 1 kill a turn, enemies eating villages get fried, and those poor lightfoots... What's the point of going for flimsy lieutenant with red mage around? Especially in 1v1

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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by TheScribe » October 31st, 2012, 1:43 pm

@Mint: I only really find the Lieutenant good in maps with extra castles on the map. That way my leader can be in the fight and still recruit. (often in the same turn, since he loses no movement points for using leadership)

Other than that, I agree with you on the Red Mage as the best choice.
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by Huumy » November 1st, 2012, 9:45 pm

Mint wrote:Huumy: I disagree. I find leadership on the leader unit isn't very good. You find yourself torn between using it for the leadershipping or recruiting... normally the fight is all over the place, some units here, some there. The worth of leadership is increased with the amount of units near the one who leads them, and to get good leadershipping in to all of those units often requires the lieutenant/captains/flares to be out of the keep for too many turns in a row. When it is used, the amount of turns between recruits is awful, you're often outnumbered even after being stronger and killing the enemies.
Lieutenant is nowhere near as good as the red mage, the usual no-brainer choice for a loyalist leader. 1 kill a turn, enemies eating villages get fried, and those poor lightfoots... What's the point of going for flimsy lieutenant with red mage around? Especially in 1v1
Going too far from your keep is not a good idea even with a Lieutnant.
I think it's better at small battles than other leaders. First of all you don't need to attack with him which means you move him to safety after giving 25% more damage to your units. That usually means 3 or more units which means 75% or more damage.
Let's say you have 3 spearmen with your Lieutnant defending villages while your main army is other side of the map attacking.
The spearmen do each 5-3 damage, 7-3 damage or 9-3 damage depending on the time of the day.
Using Lieutnants leadership it's 7-3, 9-3 or 11-3 damage for A spearman. That means 6 more potential damage for a single spearman which makes it 18 combined. After you have used your leadership you can still move and attack with your Lieutnant. The Liuetnants 3-8 attack combined boosting atleast 3 units is atleast the same kinda damage a red mage does.

Other good thing about Leadership is, you can choose who your unit's attack and then giving them more damage. Let me explain what I mean with this.
Let's say you have to kill a unit and you have limited amount of hexes, with a Liuetnant you can always choose which attack types you want to boost. Is the opponent's unit weak vs fire or has high defense? Then use leadership on mage. If the opponent's unit has low defense but high HP you can use horseman. Not only this but when there is more of opponent's units and more of your units you can choose every your unit's attacks that are good vs your opponents and boost them.

So to put it shortly I think leadership is ability that does great amounts of damage even with few units to boost also it gives your Liuetnant option to never attack if it's too dangerous. This makes Liuetnant's damage potential in most cases with a few recruits at equal level to Red mage but also gives him option to not risk his life and still do decent damage.

So why I think the Lieutnant is the best Loyalist leader. Only expection is White mage vs the undead.
- 6mp The fastest leader (I don't know if you can take lvl 2 Fencer as a leader)
- Leadership (Explained in this post)

In short, I think:
Is Liuetnant best everytime in every single situation? No.
Is Liuetnant best in most situations? Yes.
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by TheScribe » November 1st, 2012, 11:50 pm

Anyhow, to get back on topic, I've found the Skeleton Archer to be a little useless to me. Yes, he has his uses, but I generally find the DA better.
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by Crow_T » November 2nd, 2012, 12:43 am

This may get a lot of flack, but in my experience anything on a horse is useless, the AI hates 'em and will generally focus on them first, pretty much crushing them in only a few turns. You have to babysit them more than a shaman or mage.

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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by MRDNRA » November 2nd, 2012, 2:33 am

Well I have a bias against level 0 units because of them having such little health and no ZoC. It's difficult to say though. Goblin Spearman has a good attack, Walking Corpse has plague. However, I probably still say the walking corpse. To use plague you have to get kills, thus feeding it XP. At level 1 when it is at its best killing (for plague) ability it wastes XP due to not being able to level up again, whereas level 1 goblins you can use to injure enemies without ever having to worry about trying to get kills.

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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by WesnothNewbie » November 2nd, 2012, 10:39 am

TheScribe wrote:Anyhow, to get back on topic, I've found the Skeleton Archer to be a little useless to me. Yes, he has his uses, but I generally find the DA better.
I always find myself spamming more archers than melee skeletons. Perhaps my fondness for the Rebel's ranged attacks has spoiled me, but against most units (think DFs or cavalry here) the archer can attack without taking retaliation. Plus they're cheaper than the DA, and in many cases, less fragile.

Plus, with the popularity of the mage, archers are good defenders too, but can still be used on the attack if you don't have enough adepts nearby.
This may get a lot of flack, but in my experience anything on a horse is useless, the AI hates 'em and will generally focus on them first, pretty much crushing them in only a few turns. You have to babysit them more than a shaman or mage.
I rarely spam horseman. They're pretty ineffective in too many matchups (exception: drakes).
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