What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era?

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Deciton_Reven
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by Deciton_Reven » October 13th, 2012, 7:21 pm

The Dwarf Guardsman is not a great unit in my book. It doesn't hold villages much better than Fighters or Footpads, and it's attacks are sub par. It costs to much to try to protect a lot of villages and is too slow to recapture the villages that the scouts are stealing from you. The units that it is any good at fighting are fought better with Thunderers/Poachers.

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nuorc
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by nuorc » October 14th, 2012, 11:18 pm

Huumy wrote:For me is the elven fish.
I'm quite fond of Netcasters, depending on the scenario they're swell to have. And at least the Elvish fish has both melee and ranged attack, unlike the even more useless human fish.
Deciton_Reven wrote:Dwarf Guardsman
They're pretty tough to take out, especially with those annoying defense resistances. So throwing in one DG here or there as a corner-stone, depending on terrain/enemy vulnerabilities, I was sometimes surprised how easily they leveled...
I have a cunning plan.

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taptap
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by taptap » October 16th, 2012, 9:49 am

Rigor wrote:Image

the elven fish hunter is super useless. sometimes when i feel very funny i recruit it but its survival rate compared to damage output is just too ridiculous, even during the "power phase". its incredible it counts as lvl1. when u compare units that the fish is supposed to hunt, those are griphs, ghosts, bats, all kinds of drakes, naga and loyalist fishes. and eeeeeeeeeeeevery single of these units has a high chance to avoid punishment respectively just attack themselves in return AND kill the elvish hunter. he is pretty damn useless with his unreliable 3 attacks, that is, 3 strikes a max. 18 dmg, but mostly 3 strikes a 12 dmg maximum. mostly u get 8 dmg in when u r lucky and the fish hit twice. perhaps a special, poisonous or dextrous attack or a change of concept would help here. btw, watch the news and statistical evaluation of the PYRA tournament, where the most used ad the most unused units will be transferred into a list. heres the link: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 85#p539685
It retaliates against attacking enemies. The base 5*3 + 4*2 damage for the hunter represents a larger percentage of a merman fighters hp than the 6*3 for the fighter of a hunters hp. While this is not accounting for the trait gains, it might indicate that in large scale attrition warfare at sea the hunters might do better than when fighting in very small groups were individual ctk matters more. The same equation starts to look very favourable against naga (lower hp than fighter), but of course their mobility means they will be the first to engage the hunter. Sure, it does not matter in the kind of matches usually played, but in larger scale warfare at sea, I believe the picture might look different.
Last edited by taptap on October 16th, 2012, 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Colouredbox
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by Colouredbox » October 16th, 2012, 1:52 pm

taptap wrote:
Rigor wrote:Image

the elven fish hunter is super useless. sometimes when i feel very funny i recruit it but its survival rate compared to damage output is just too ridiculous, even during the "power phase". its incredible it counts as lvl1. when u compare units that the fish is supposed to hunt, those are griphs, ghosts, bats, all kinds of drakes, naga and loyalist fishes. and eeeeeeeeeeeevery single of these units has a high chance to avoid punishment respectively just attack themselves in return AND kill the elvish hunter. he is pretty damn useless with his unreliable 3 attacks, that is, 3 strikes a max. 18 dmg, but mostly 3 strikes a 12 dmg maximum. mostly u get 8 dmg in when u r lucky and the fish hit twice. perhaps a special, poisonous or dextrous attack or a change of concept would help here. btw, watch the news and statistical evaluation of the PYRA tournament, where the most used ad the most unused units will be transferred into a list. heres the link: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 85#p539685
It retaliates against attacking enemies. The base 5*3 + 4*2 damage for the hunter represents a larger percentage of a merman fighters hp than the 6*3 for the fighter of a hunters hp. While this is not accounting for the trait gains and large tod bonus, it might indicate that in large scale attrition warfare at sea the hunters might do better than when fighting in very small groups were individual ctk matters more. The same equation starts to look very favourable against naga (lower hp than fighter), but of course their mobility means they will be the first to engage the hunter. Sure, it does not matter in the kind of matches usually played, but in larger scale warfare at sea, I believe the picture might look different.
Except:
-Hunters cost 15 gold (1 more than fighters or nagas)
-Less hp
-Worse when trying to focus fire (lower damage output so actually killing stuff is harder)
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taptap
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by taptap » October 16th, 2012, 2:29 pm

When I write 18/30 (fighter total damage/hunter hp) < 23/36 (hunter total damage/fighter hp) HP are already included. Even if you multiply 23/36 with 14/15 (for price adjustment) you are still very close. I am well aware that it isn't everything, as the player playing fighters can distribute damage better, get more out of the strong trait, nagini are more mobile etc. It is more complicated in detail obviously (ToD combined with traits, different effect on survivability of resilience).
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Huumy
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by Huumy » October 16th, 2012, 3:56 pm

nuorc wrote:I'm quite fond of Netcasters, depending on the scenario they're swell to have. And at least the Elvish fish has both melee and ranged attack, unlike the even more useless human fish.
I personally like strong melee over weak melee and ranged. It's useless to try duel anything with the elf fishes. Tho I have to say the level 2 ranged slow is awesome but I just have never seen a netcaster in a game.
Tho my experience is only with 1v1 default multiplayer games. Maybe in a campaign it's better or there are ways to use it I don't know :).

Ps. Just giving some reasons why I think it's weak, not saying any1 who thinks it's not weak is wrong! :D
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tr0ll
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by tr0ll » October 16th, 2012, 7:06 pm

i find it curious that merman hunters who wield spears graduate into netcasters who wield club and net. one would expect them to start with one or the other in a weaker form, or continue with spears and get faster or stealthier or acquire one new weapon at most between levels.

i found the brawler easy to hit and too limited in usefulness (only good against skeletons) especially since they are stuck at level 2.

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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by TheScribe » October 16th, 2012, 9:02 pm

Brawler isn't in the default era...

And the hunters also have a level-up that uses spears.
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by Huumy » October 17th, 2012, 10:36 am

tr0ll wrote:i find it curious that merman hunters who wield spears graduate into netcasters who wield club and net. one would expect them to start with one or the other in a weaker form, or continue with spears and get faster or stealthier or acquire one new weapon at most between levels.
It makes sense if you think them as creatures who hunt fish, they are just given better tools when they are experienced enough.
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by 5dPZ » October 17th, 2012, 11:05 am

Got to be HI.
It is a waste of 19 gold vs most factions except undead and dwarves....then
for undead, it is too slow to retreat at night and will get killed by DAs easily.
for dwarf, it has trouble hitting dwarves in hill/mountain and outlaws anywhere and suffers the same hard-to-retreat problem at night.

as a result, i almost never use HI vs. human players.

btw, bowman and poachers are among my favs, they are cheap and durable, good for def vs. ranged attack. poacher's 50% in swamps and 60% in forest is very desirable at times.

edit....200th post ㄟ( ̄▽ ̄ㄟ)

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The_Afterman
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by The_Afterman » October 18th, 2012, 12:29 pm

Goblin Spearman easily. It never hits, when it does it's very weak even at night. Dark Adepts beat it in melee combat. Even without melee. \:D
way too expensive considering grunt is 3 more and really strong

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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by TheScribe » October 18th, 2012, 1:09 pm

Well, the Gobo does have the advantage of being level 0. I might recruit one in a game sometimes...
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Huumy
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by Huumy » October 19th, 2012, 1:03 am

The goblin has the advantage of having 3 attacks instead of the usual 2. Having a goblin in your army is a cheap way to get better kill chance vs low HP enemies :)
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by WesnothNewbie » October 29th, 2012, 9:38 pm

Rigor wrote:Image

the elven fish hunter is super useless. sometimes when i feel very funny i recruit it but its survival rate compared to damage output is just too ridiculous, even during the "power phase". its incredible it counts as lvl1. when u compare units that the fish is supposed to hunt, those are griphs, ghosts, bats, all kinds of drakes, naga and loyalist fishes. and eeeeeeeeeeeevery single of these units has a high chance to avoid punishment respectively just attack themselves in return AND kill the elvish hunter. he is pretty damn useless with his unreliable 3 attacks, that is, 3 strikes a max. 18 dmg, but mostly 3 strikes a 12 dmg maximum. mostly u get 8 dmg in when u r lucky and the fish hit twice. perhaps a special, poisonous or dextrous attack or a change of concept would help here. btw, watch the news and statistical evaluation of the PYRA tournament, where the most used ad the most unused units will be transferred into a list. heres the link: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 85#p539685
Seems like an anti-hunter rant. Come ON, this unit beats the loyalist and northener melee units one on one for only one gold more. And usually, players don't recruit more than one or two of these units, as battles are mostly land fought. Even if you fight a major sea war, the hunter's ability to attack without retaliation is bigger than you might realise.

Now, as for drakes, cheap + pierce attacks. They beat Drakes on sea. Gryphons? Easily trappable by your cheaper units and often miss with their two strikes, plus they can't retaliate.

As you might be able to tell, Rebels is my favourite faction :) Still, I've warmed to Knalgan Alliance and Loyalists somewhat. I even like those Drakes (or should I say, I like the saurians...). I don't play that well with undead though, and northeners... Enough said.
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Re: What do you find to be the worst unit in the default era

Post by Lord-Knightmare » October 30th, 2012, 8:07 am

The Worst unit in the default era is none other than the lieutenant. Its weak and low HP, I remember killing in one with a horseman...

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