I've read a lot already: Newb observations and questions

[jazzykat]

Hi.

First I would like to thank everyone who worked at this game. It makes board strategy/tactics games exceptionally accessible.This is my first foray into them and I really enjoy BfW.

I've read both the normal and advanced manual. I've done the Southern Watch on Easy. I'm working on HttT on medium and have some observations questions.

1. (Generally speaking) Is it better to fight almost until turns run out to maximize your level ups or finish early and get a lot of gold?

2. 2 level and 3 level units are insanely powerful compared to level 1's. (Generally speaking) How many level 2+ units dying per scenario is acceptable (for me it seems like none may the right answer). Is a level 2 unit worth more than 2 level 1 units? (it seems like other than not being in 2 places at once and exerting ZoC then yes?)

3. How do I learn ZoC moves? Ctrl+V, using the cursor to see how far the enemy can get. This seems to really separate winning from losing.

4. I am definitely too aggressive. How far will the AI pursue with chaotic enemies during second watch/dawn when I am using lawful and retreating to wait for day break? Unfortunately, we are constrained by turns and I am afraid that if I always wait for the right time I will run out of turns.

5. in HttT in your opinion what is the optimal mix of dudes for SCENARIO SIX: The Siege of Elensefar? I have 4 Knights (L2 Horsemen) plus a few other L2 units and an L3 Konrad. According to Gandledorf in his walkthrough of HttT http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=7064

"My initial recruit on a good campaign was 1 Avenger, 1 Captain, 2 Heroes, 1 Druid, and 1 White Mage. I followed up with 1 Marksman, 1 Knight, 2 Mages, an experienced Horseman and Fighter duo, and Lord Konrad. This force represents a total of 10 level-ups, or only two per scenario - you can definitely do it. If you don’t have at least 6-7 level ups, I would replay the campaign. "


5.a Is there a suggested unit/level up plan for HttT? I feel like I went to Heavy on Knights and even though they make the scenarios up to The Siege of Elensefar easy but they are also big fat pin cushions for the L2 orcish archers. The only good thing is I sit on the southern bank and smash them with my lance melee attack while they are standing in the water.

6. Does a unit gain XP when they are defending or just from attacking?

Thanks for your help.

[Kanzil]

Does a unit gain XP when they are defending or just from attacking?

Yes, they do.

Is there a suggested unit/level up plan for HttT? I feel like I went to Heavy on Knights and even though they make the scenarios up to The Siege of Elensefar easy but they are also big fat pin cushions for the L2 orcish archers. The only good thing is I sit on the southern bank and smash them with my lance melee attack while they are standing in the water.

Plenty of druids, sorceresses and other advances of the shaman are also recommended, and probably an archmage or two as well for strong magical damage. A couple of tanks like marshals and champions are good as well, especially as marshals have leadership. One avenger is sometimes useful. Finally, a couple of white mages, for healing, are a necessity.

(Generally speaking) Is it better to fight almost until turns run out to maximize your level ups or finish early and get a lot of gold?

In mainline campaigns it is always better to get the early finish bonus.

According to Gandledorf in his walkthrough of HttT

That's from 2005...

[taptap]

There is no best mix for siege of elensefar, many recruits do work. In General: Keep recruiting L1 and only recall as many experienced units as you feel you need, with some L1 around it is much easier to keep your experienced units alive and the L1 become experienced too, so it doesn't matter when you lose some of your veterans. You will also end with more gold that way. A L2 almost always has less HP and less damage potential than two L1, but it has all its power concentrated in a single hex, it costs double upkeep, but the recall costs only 20 (this can be more or less than a L1). In campaigns I always try to build my recall list for best flexibility, because I don't know what may be needed later - i don't always manage to do so, but at least it is good to try.

HttT: Don't forget about merfolk. Having some of them levelled helps a lot at times (swamps, rivers etc.). They are loyal too.

Patience: You don't lose on time because you retreat during the night, usually being able to hit hard during the day more than compensates for any damage not dealt during the night. If you engage at night, use illumination, and especially slow to its full extent and play for minimal retaliation.

[Dixie]

Does a unit gain XP when they are defending or just from attacking?

Yes, they do.

To be exact, they gain the attacking unit's level in exp. So attacking with a L4 archmage gives 4xp to the defender, and attacking with a L0 goblin spearman gives none.

1. (Generally speaking) Is it better to fight almost until turns run out to maximize your level ups or finish early and get a lot of gold?

I'm not a big campaign player, but generally, yes (EDIT: by which I mean, you should generally finish early). Depends on your needs for the campaign, though: if you banked a lot on money in previous scenarios but are lacking a bit in levelled units, it might be worth your while for a few scenarios. But levelled units are worthless if you don't have the gold to recall them...

2. 2 level and 3 level units are insanely powerful compared to level 1's. (Generally speaking) How many level 2+ units dying per scenario is acceptable (for me it seems like none may the right answer). Is a level 2 unit worth more than 2 level 1 units? (it seems like other than not being in 2 places at once and exerting ZoC then yes?)

Once again, there are exceptions (see individual scenarios) but as a rule of thumb, 2 lv1s are always better than a lv2 (idem for lv3s and 4s). Depends on some key abilities, though: having a lv2 healer or two can be worth your while, as is having a few leadership units, etc. As for the amount of losable levelled units, it pretty much depends on individual scenarios and campaigns. It also depends what you lost it for. A lv2 sacrifice to save Konrad might be conceivable, but one for petty scouting might be less so...

3. How do I learn ZoC moves? Ctrl+V, using the cursor to see how far the enemy can get. This seems to really separate winning from losing.

You mean, you want to understand how zoc works? Every unit above lv0 has ZoC (lv0s are recognizable by the dashed ellipse under them), which means any non-skirmisher unit will lose all its remaining moves if moving on an hex adjacent to an enemy unit. So 2 units can guard a 5 hex wide passage against most units.

4. I am definitely too aggressive. How far will the AI pursue with chaotic enemies during second watch/dawn when I am using lawful and retreating to wait for day break? Unfortunately, we are constrained by turns and I am afraid that if I always wait for the right time I will run out of turns.

Generally (that is, if the scenario doesn't prohibit some behavior, as is in skirmish games) it will pursue as far as it can without any other consideration - that you be on a village under favourable time of day, etc. It will mostly only account for the health of your unit and and the health of his, in relation to the potential dommage each can deal to the other. It will generally attack the unit it has the most chances of killing without being killed, or something like that.

[Insinuator]

1. (Generally speaking) Is it better to fight almost until turns run out to maximize your level ups or finish early and get a lot of gold?

I'm not a big campaign player, but generally, yes. Depends on your needs for the campaign, though: if you banked a lot on money in previous scenarios but are lacking a bit in levelled units, it might be worth your while for a few scenarios. But levelled units are worthless if you don't have the gold to recall them...

Although I agree with everything else Dixie said, on this point there is a most emphatic NO. More than 90% of the time, finishing early is always better. You can get XP anywhere; gold you usually only get at the beginning. In fact, it is related to your question about two level 1s versus one level 2. If you can buy twice as many units because you've saved more gold, you will be in a better position. Trust me, you will get leveled units unless you're freakishly reckless. Don't waste time and money piddling about trying to anticipate what may come. Better to have the gold to adapt than the units.

4. I am definitely too aggressive. How far will the AI pursue with chaotic enemies during second watch/dawn when I am using lawful and retreating to wait for day break? Unfortunately, we are constrained by turns and I am afraid that if I always wait for the right time I will run out of turns.

Unless directly prohibited from doing so, the AI will pursue with suicidal aggression. Unlike a human, it doesn't care about day/night shift. From my experience in SP, retreating is rather pointless. The AI will just come after you, and you can't play cat and mouse in such a finite space. Better to learn good use of ZoC to block access to wounded units and continually advance. Or, in appropiate scenarios, just guard chokepoints and rotate units out while the AI dashes itself against you.

[Dixie]

Wow! Sorry, I really meant to say "No" on that quote! The rest of the sentence should sound weird with that mistake :S Thanks for noticing!

EDIT: In fact, the misunderstanding comes from the fact that it wasn't a yes/no question to begin with - I was saying yes to "finish early". My bad, I edited to be more clear.

[CMaster]

1. (Generally speaking) Is it better to fight almost until turns run out to maximize your level ups or finish early and get a lot of gold?

Actually, there is one more subtle little twist to that question: Your bonus is precisely the amount of gold you would generate, if you owned all the villages and payed zero upkeep. Since each village you own reduces your upkeep by one in addition to the one gold you get from it (which is why a village is usually worth two gold per turn, not one), you can usually have quite an army standing around without earning a single coin of gold less.

The point is, that you are oftentimes very close to generating as much gold per turn as you could gain from finishing early when you are in the position to decide whether to finish the battle now or a few turns later. And sometimes it does not even make any difference at all.

So, when I am close to finishing off my enemy I always check two figures:
The number of villages I do not own,
and the amount of effective upkeep I'm paying.
Adding both figures gives the amount of gold I am vasting with each turn finished later. If I can't get that figure down to zero or one within one or two more turns, I usually go for the kill. But if it's zero, I won't hurry...

Ps: If you can prove, that the bonus won't get you out of your debts anyway, there's no point in hurrying either - you'll start the next scenario with the minimum gold.

[jazzykat]

Thanks to everybody for their answers. I initially played this game like Starcraft even after I read through the basic manuals.

So if I were to make general summations about Lvl 1 vs. Lvl 2 troops, and combat styles:

1. Unless I am in the off chance that finishing early doesn't net me considerably more gold, finish early and worry about levels later because more gold= more troops.

2. It seems that it is best to Level up Konrad, Loyal Troops (free upkeep I'll take that!!!), Healers, Mages, and a few guys with Leadership. Leveling up into Rangers, Knights, etc. seems to be much less important because gold is better to have an overwhelming force.

3. If exposed (e.g. left on a flank), the AI will also relentlessly hammer any character that must be kept alive (Konrad, etc.)

Question:
1. What is show enemy best move? How is it calculated?

[The_Afterman]

Since Heir to the Throne is such a long campaign, keeping your goldflow high and ready for 'an overwhelming force' is definately a nice plan.
But later on, you will want at least a few higher level units to help with scarier scenarios.

[Kanzil]

It seems that it is best to Level up Konrad, Loyal Troops (free upkeep I'll take that!!!), Healers, Mages, and a few guys with Leadership. Leveling up into Rangers, Knights, etc. seems to be much less important because gold is better to have an overwhelming force.

Yes, but your spear needs a point-big-hitting units that can open up weak spots in the enemy line. For example, Grand Knights. These in turn, need a bit of protection from tank units, like champions. Healers are a necessity, as are leveled loyals and leaders. However, of course you need plenty of cannon fodder as well, and it is expensive maintaining a large army. So you should have mainly level 1s with the leveled units saved for later, more difficult scenarios, excluding your leader and healer.

Avengers can be useful, especially as HttT has so many wooded maps, meaning the ambush ability can be utilised to your advantage.

scarier scenarios

There aren't many/there aren't any of them in HttT.

[Celtic_Minstrel]

There aren't many/there aren't any of them in HttT.

Maybe the drake one (but I haven't played it so I can't say for sure).

[Radh]

2. It seems that it is best to Level up Konrad, Loyal Troops (free upkeep I'll take that!!!), Healers, Mages, and a few guys with Leadership. Leveling up into Rangers, Knights, etc. seems to be much less important because gold is better to have an overwhelming force.

HTtT is a very long campaign, and having a well-rounded force is much more appealing than leveling up a few to the extreme. You go from fighting orcs to humans to trolls to the undead, among other various species, and different forces can respond much more effectively than others.

My strategy for HTtT was the to focus on leveling a few of everything I got (and sacrificing the rest, since a perfect game can't be done; this required a lot of turn re-dos, but that's the beauty of the game), and gold wasn't as much of a priority for me as it was to have a few of the best of the best out there. It overwhelmed the enemy and although I was deep into debt at the end of each scenario, I still had enough to summon the bets of the best the next round.

3. If exposed (e.g. left on a flank), the AI will also relentlessly hammer any character that must be kept alive (Konrad, etc.)

I'm not sure about the algorithms of the AI, but from what I know, they will hammer whoever is the easiest to kill in their vicinity. Whether that is Konrad (because you haven't allowed him to fight and he is the only Level 1 around) or a mage, they will target whoever's easiest.

I hope this helps and have fun in Wesnoth!

[Celtic_Minstrel]

I believe they do consider leaders higher priority targets than other units, though, at least by default. They could also be made to do the same with heroes in individual scenarios.

[Dixie]

2. It seems that it is best to Level up Konrad, Loyal Troops (free upkeep I'll take that!!!), Healers, Mages, and a few guys with Leadership. Leveling up into Rangers, Knights, etc. seems to be much less important because gold is better to have an overwhelming force.

HTtT is a very long campaign, and having a well-rounded force is much more appealing than leveling up a few to the extreme. You go from fighting orcs to humans to trolls to the undead, among other various species, and different forces can respond much more effectively than others.

My strategy for HTtT was the to focus on leveling a few of everything I got (and sacrificing the rest, since a perfect game can't be done; this required a lot of turn re-dos, but that's the beauty of the game), and gold wasn't as much of a priority for me as it was to have a few of the best of the best out there. It overwhelmed the enemy and although I was deep into debt at the end of each scenario, I still had enough to summon the bets of the best the next round.

Once again, not a big campaign player. That being said, you seem to contradict yourself - you said you preferred having a lot of middle power in your first paragraph, then seem to imply that on the contrary, you mostly save/reloaded and played with a small high-level force. Well, far from me the idea to tell you how to enjoy the game - if it is fun for you that way, who am I to say you shouldn't do it? But from my experience, save-loading in particular is the best way to get sick of Wesnoth quickly. And playing the game as an RPG (a small high-level force), is the easy way to be tempted in doing it. A small elite force costs a lot to maintain (hence being in debt), and lacks on meat-shield, so you need extreme luck to pull it off (hence save-loading). And since you are always in debt, you get no choice but to recall your elite the next time around if you want to have a chance at succeeding, and... well, you get the point.

In general, from my experience, you should scarcely ever recall units that have finished levelling (except for those especially crucial scenarios like Siege of Elensefar or Valley of Death, IIRC, and the eventual healer/leader that can support your lower-level troops), and avoid as much as possible giving them kills. You'll have much more levelled units in the end and usually much more gold to recall them and their meat shields...

[Celtic_Minstrel]

But from my experience, save-loading in particular is the best way to get sick of Wesnoth quickly.

As someone who actually does this at times, I definitely agree; it has a tendency after a few iterations to make me just decide to give up and try again later.