How to play Knalgan?

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Green_meep
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Joined: June 24th, 2012, 4:44 pm

How to play Knalgan?

Post by Green_meep »

Hey all,
I've recently started playing Battle for Wesnoth after a couple years. I find playing Knalgan fun, but I don't really have much experience with them, as before I took that hiatus, I played things like Rebels and Loyalists. I know that Knalgan's dwarf units have very low movement, and I take care to watch the daytime meter and not make too many "big" plays until I'm sure I have gold advantage. Thing is, it seems that I get wrecked by pretty much every race I've faced - even my newbie friend playing Northeners.

Example:
My friend, playing Undead, just rushes me during the daytime with a fleet of ghosts (after I destroyed his augur with my ulfseeker). I'm in a decently strong position, with about half my units on mountains. The rest of them are in a defensive position. He managed to outsustain my forces (even after I retreat, because ghosts obviously outpace dwarves) into the daytime and puts me in a ridiculously defensive position. I managed some lucky rolls and forced a surrender after I got two Dwarvish Lords, but I just feel like I'm doing something wrong.

Oh, and I've already read through the "How to Play" guide.

Thanks in advance.
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lipk
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Re: How to play Knalgan?

Post by lipk »

My friend, playing Undead, just rushes me during the daytime with a fleet of ghosts (after I destroyed his augur with my ulfseeker). I'm in a decently strong position, with about half my units on mountains. The rest of them are in a defensive position. He managed to outsustain my forces (even after I retreat, because ghosts obviously outpace dwarves) into the daytime and puts me in a ridiculously defensive position. I managed some lucky rolls and forced a surrender after I got two Dwarvish Lords, but I just feel like I'm doing something wrong.
"Fleet of ghosts" and "two Dwarvish Lords" somehow imply to me that you were playing on a really big map with really big income. Standard balancing might be broken under such non-standard circumstances.

In my experience patience is essential when playing Knalgans. Always place your dwarves on mountains and hills, and threat your enemy's territory with Gryphon Riders and Footpads. Be defensive. Don't let your quick dwarves die, they're very precious. It might work. Or not. Frankly, I'm not an awesome player myself.
Green_meep
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Joined: June 24th, 2012, 4:44 pm

Re: How to play Knalgan?

Post by Green_meep »

Well, "fleet" was more like 4-5 ghosts that he spawned on turn one. The two dwarvish lords were really far into the game, as I had managed to keep them alive for as long as I could.
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lipk
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Re: How to play Knalgan?

Post by lipk »

Oh, I see. Two level 3-s in a game are still strange, though. I recall playing an insanely long match (50 turns or so) against Ceres and I don't think that either of us managed to get a single level 3. Yeah, the Ghost spam might be annoying since the Knalgans don't have any really effective units against them, but I'm afraid that there was some error involved on your end, too, since Ghosts can hardly cause any considerable damage for Dwarves and Outlaws.

EDIT: you could post some replays. It is much easier to point out mistakes in a concrete game than speaking about them in general.
Ceres
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Re: How to play Knalgan?

Post by Ceres »

Against ghosts, I'd suggest Thunderers. Two Thunderer hits can kill a ghost at any time of day. Use poachers to reliably kill 1-2 HP ghosts. Use Footpads to encicrle stray ghosts, so the can't flee to a village, then whittle them down with ranged attacks.
Green_meep
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Joined: June 24th, 2012, 4:44 pm

Re: How to play Knalgan?

Post by Green_meep »

lipk wrote:Oh, I see. Two level 3-s in a game are still strange, though. I recall playing an insanely long match (50 turns or so) against Ceres and I don't think that either of us managed to get a single level 3. Yeah, the Ghost spam might be annoying since the Knalgans don't have any really effective units against them, but I'm afraid that there was some error involved on your end, too, since Ghosts can hardly cause any considerable damage for Dwarves and Outlaws.

EDIT: you could post some replays. It is much easier to point out mistakes in a concrete game than speaking about them in general.
Okay! Not sure how to post replays though.
Ceres wrote:Against ghosts, I'd suggest Thunderers. Two Thunderer hits can kill a ghost at any time of day. Use poachers to reliably kill 1-2 HP ghosts. Use Footpads to encicrle stray ghosts, so the can't flee to a village, then whittle them down with ranged attacks.
Does that mean that I should recruit mainly Thunderers with a couple poachers/footpads?

EDIT: Just remembered I had it on 30%XP. I'm not sure how that would change things though, except for making them more snowbally.
MRDNRA
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Joined: September 11th, 2009, 5:06 pm

Re: How to play Knalgan?

Post by MRDNRA »

It's highly situation dependent, but against undead, mass thunderers will, against a good player, result in a very quick loss. 2 thunderers at absolute maximum, footpads are good for defense (impact vulnerability of skellies). Of course, if someone decides to spam ghosts against knalgans, then by all means recruit a few thunderers, but it is very unlikely that you'll see such a recruit in a normal game.
Bast
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Re: How to play Knalgan?

Post by Bast »

Even if i'm a bit rusty, i have a decent level at playing Wesnoth and if you follow these advices, you won't have much troubles against random opponents.

So How to Play Knalgans ?

Against undeads :


STEP 1: Day Time

You seems kinda unexperienced so i'll try to give basic advices.
Let's begin with the weaknesses & how to protect you from them.
Against undeads, your problems are in order of importance : NIGHT, Ghouls, Ghosts, and Adepts.
The real basic is NEVER FIGHT AT THE OPPONENT'S FIRST NIGHT, it also means you won't let your opponent reach one of your unit at first night if he can kill it (imagine 100% hit) or trap it.

If you're very experienced, you can fight undeads at night (meaning you know how to atttack weak spots, lure the opponent, manage to not go in front of wrong units, be very good in positions & recruiting...), but you are not experienced so don't do it at all. NEVER.

So what to do when it's night ?
First, take a guard. Always recruit ONE guard, could be two but one is enough. Don't recruit more.
The guard is your main defense against any faction. There is no faction that want to spend one entire turn defeating one unit & hoping to not be unlucky. So people tend to avoid guards if they have the choice. When you will become more experienced you will not recruit guard. But now, the guard is at your level an excellent recruitment to not give villages on second night.

Second, try to avoid getting damaged at all at first night. Did i said it ? Ok let's be clear: It means you have to retreat, far if needed. Retreat, retreat & retreat.
When night will end, you will take back all the villages and go to some kills.
BUT, don't give too much villages. That's why you have a guard & some fast units. We'll speak about the recruit after.
The bats may be a problem, as ghosts can be, because they will try to steal villages. Don't let them. If you give a village, it's because you have 2 adepts + one other unit that is menacing your village. Meaning if you let your unit in the village it might die.
The guard can survive 2 adepts though.

Again, i'll pass the details but basicallely here's the basic rules about daytime :
- Don't take damages on first night => meaning you will retreat enough to not let 2 or more adepts reaching one of your units. Or don't let the opponent trap on of your unit on first night.
- Defend your villages on second night => meaning you can let the guard getting some damage there, he will stay in the village. You usually gave 1 or 2 villages in first night, maybe even 3 if you badly managed your day but you won't give more without a fight. It's because you can counterattack if the opponent push too far & make some damage, & then it's day & he may loose a lot of units.

Indeed, there is exceptions... But try to follow the rule & you should be fine against random opponents at this level.
Try to not let bats steal villages that have no adept in range to attack them. Put somethin there. Don't give villages for free. IF you give a village, it's because the unit you would put there might be killed at first night.

So the idea is: in front of the big army, retreat at first night to not let them attack anything if they could kill it (with 100% hit). At second night, put a guard in the village they menace to attack. Put footpads & other fast units in the other ones where there is less danger.

After they played their second night, you can counter attack if they attacked your guard &/or if they have a bad defense. You can just trap units if you have the opportunity & advance, or just stay where you are. Depends if the opponent have a good defense. Depends also if you play first or second..
Preferably, basically, you will attack at dawn. More details coming in the rest of the text.

As a side note : A thunderer with 70% def is a great def against undeads on second night because the would need adepts to kill it & they would take huge retaliation.. (but they can poison it). Besides, recruiting thunderer against undeads is not necessary... But some other recruits are.
Once you got that you got 30% of the win against random opponents. And the rest % aren't more complicated.

STEP 2: Recruitement & KILLING THINGS

The defense part is kinda finished. I didn't spoke on montains did you noticed ? Yes.. Having good defense is usually much needed. But actually, it's the less needed against undeads because their main weapon is the adept & it have magic... Actually, the best is to force your opponent to get on bad def because YOU don't have magic.
Besides, what you need to care about the most is day time. Really. This is the best basic defense. The other best well known defense is the attack, so let's speak on that.

Ok, so let's do it simple.

What units are a problem to be killed ?
The ghost & the ghouls.

Ghost. (Best Day/Night : ulf at day, poachers+ backtabbing rogue at night)
Knowing how to kill a ghost is a good step.
What can attack a ghost with dwarves and inflict damages or kill ? Strong Ulf at day (KILL), all range can do damages: poachers or thunderers (can finish with ulf at day..) ranged footpads.. , backstabbing rogue can be great (preferably with 70% def), dwarf warrior with 60% def only and at day (some damages, try to do it only to finish an almost dead ghost)...
Anyway to kill a ulf the best thing to do: Trap it and wait for first day. If it's first day already that's good but i hope you have an ulf.
If you have an ulf, i hope it's a strong one, if not check the chances to kill, if it's below 70/75% inflict the ghost some damages before using the ulf. What that clear ? Other ways to kill a ghost : using your level 2 leader to hurt him, finish it with thunderer, griff, warriors at 60% def only, etc..
Anyway, try to not Attack ghost at night. Trap it only at night & wait for the day.

Ghouls (Best Day /night: Ulf at day / footpads at night)
They are a problem because they poison but you don't have healers. IF you attack with warriors, they will all get poisoned & it will be over for you because even if you kill it, your entire army will need to rest & will die in some turns. Ghouls resists pierce so thunderers & poachers won't help much. Footpads on the other hand can do a great job especially if the ghoul is low def.
Again, the ulf is the solution.. and at day. It's kill a ghost directly.

Squelli warrior (Best Day / Night: Dwarve warriors at day / footpads at night)
Footpads are great for them. Your dwarves warriors are great aswell. Both of them.

Squelli archers (Day / Night: ulfs-warriors / ulfs-footpads-warriors)

Adepts (Ulf / Any melee..)


So What is the amazing unit that can kill alone & at day: ghosts, adepts, archers, ghouls, zombies and bats ?
Spoiler:
I hope you had the answer. Ulfseker is your main weapon against undeads. They have adepts, you have ulfs. Quite simple.
Dwarf warriors & footpads are much needed. They will kill the only unit the ulf can't kill, the squelli warrior, but more important they will cover your ulfs after they kill.
Because the ulf is weak after he killed. Sometimes, a bat can finish him off. He always need to be covered. Ulf is a great unit but he always need 2/3 other units to protect him.
Having fast units is a must have, like footpads, maybe one griff to trap, finish off units, cover back villages, steal villages and most of all : COVERING YOUR ULFS.


Conclusion : Your best first recruit against undeads ?
One ulf, 2 footpads, One dwarve warrior, one guard. You won't need more guards after hopefully, but spam the others.
Always have at least 3 units for 1 ulf, if not 4. Always cover your ulfs like the most precious things on earth.

Managing your attack :
Dawn is close, you feel the wind bringing to you the smell of the putrefactions of these bastards. Nothing best on earth than leaving it free from these abominations (ok maybe killing elves is better but whatever)...
There you go, your footpads go to trap them, your warriors begin to inflict damages on archers & adepts, or just come to laugh in front of a warrior squelli without attacking them yet: you want the full day for that.
Your ulfs may have kills already, maybe your footpads inflict enough damage on that ghouls to finish it off.
Also, this ghost there is crying for you to trap him, and your great ulf just wait one turn to do his job. you don't take retaliations on your attack yet, it's dawn: it means you want to range the melee units & to melee the range units.
Then it's day, let the party begins, if they retreat far away shitting in their pants, just grab villages but hopefully you will have something to kill.
If not, just manage to force them to retreat the most possible: it will be a long way back for them to attack the night after.
The most important of all: never let them kill an ulf for free, always cover them well before, & after they get the kill.
And don't forget to retreat soon enough to avoid first night damages.
----------------

If you need more details, just ask, i have to go !!
If you want to know about the other matchups, like drakes, etc... ask for it.
Hope that helps.
Huumy
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Re: How to play Knalgan?

Post by Huumy »

Green_meep wrote:I've recently started playing Battle for Wesnoth after a couple years. I find playing Knalgan fun, but I don't really have much experience with them, as before I took that hiatus, I played things like Rebels and Loyalists. I know that Knalgan's dwarf units have very low movement, and I take care to watch the daytime meter and not make too many "big" plays until I'm sure I have gold advantage. Thing is, it seems that I get wrecked by pretty much every race I've faced - even my newbie friend playing Northeners.
When I read this it feels like you do what all the new Knalgan players do, they recruit too many dwarves. It seems weird but it's usually good idea to recruit more outlaws than dwarces SPECIALLY at the first turn. Dwarves are excellent units for holding hills and mountains, but they can't do much else.

It seems you had a lot of fun so I wouldn't worry it too much, just try different kind of units and/or playstyle next time. There's usually something that you understand if you do something even a little bit different than previous time.

Ps. "ask about green fur"
This is reference to your name if it's from where I think it's from :)
"And the girl that you want is directly out in front, And she’s waving her caboose at you, You sneeze achoo, She calls you out and boom!"
The offspring, trolling you since forever.
Green_meep
Posts: 4
Joined: June 24th, 2012, 4:44 pm

Re: How to play Knalgan?

Post by Green_meep »

Bast wrote:Even if i'm a bit rusty, i have a decent level at playing Wesnoth and if you follow these advices, you won't have much troubles against random opponents...
Hope that helps.
Alright, thanks for all the help! My main problem was that I didn't know how to play against ghosts. Never realized that Ulfs were so strong against them during the daytime, heh.
Huumy wrote: When I read this it feels like you do what all the new Knalgan players do, they recruit too many dwarves. It seems weird but it's usually good idea to recruit more outlaws than dwarces SPECIALLY at the first turn. Dwarves are excellent units for holding hills and mountains, but they can't do much else.

It seems you had a lot of fun so I wouldn't worry it too much, just try different kind of units and/or playstyle next time. There's usually something that you understand if you do something even a little bit different than previous time.
I'll try that as well. I didn't know that Knalgans were so non-dwarf heavy.
Huumy wrote: Ps. "ask about green fur"
This is reference to your name if it's from where I think it's from
Nope, it isn't!
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TheScribe
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Re: How to play Knalgan?

Post by TheScribe »

Another thing that might help. Versus undead use impact. Skeletons fall before you. Ghosts are good versus it, but Dwarvish Fighters can use their axe versus them.

Here's a list of fighting groups. Keep groups like this together and you'll do okay.
  • 1 Fighter and 2/3 Thunderers
  • 3 Fighters
  • 2 Fighters and 1/2 Poachers
  • 2 Poachers, 2 Footpads, and 1 Ulf
  • 2 Poachers, 2 Thieves, and 1 Ulf
  • 1 Fighter, 1 Thunderer, and 1 Ulf
  • 2/3 Fighters and 1 Ulf
  • 2 Thieves and 2 Footpads/Poachers
Also, never leave an ulf on his own. Use them to attack weakened units and units with low hitpoints (i.e. ghosts) then protect him with a couple fighters.

Footpads and Poachers have low HP. Be aware of this. Many times have I relied on [acronym=Plural of Footpad(kidding)]Feet[/acronym] and Poachers to protect my heavily wounded units and seen them slain, much to my dismay, and my more experienced unit(s) die after them.

Another thing is to use position Guardsmen on villages right behind the front lines. Their steadfast ability will help them as a defender, wheras they stink on defense. The best defense is NOT a good offense. Your enemy will slip units through your attacking force and slaughter your leader, thus ending the game. Also don't be aggressive with your leader. Knalgan units are good enough without you leader jumping into the fray. Killing a unit within range of your keep is fine though.

And if you're looking for general advice, if there's a castle close to your enemies castle move there and recruit really close to him. This puts your opponent onto the defensive and you don't have to wait for your units to reach him. For this strategy to work go for your opponent's leader, not his units. It's risky, but almost always works. (Plus it baffles the AI :lol2:)
Sorta on a break from the forums ATM, have been for a while. If I was doing something for/with you and I haven't recently, that's why, I will be back soon hopefully.
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