poison problem !

Share and discuss strategies for playing the game, and get help and tips from other players.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

skel
Posts: 3
Joined: October 20th, 2004, 11:14 pm

poison problem !

Post by skel »

hello , pg talked about the ghouls (i showed him that ghouls + bats and adept are unbeatable) but i realize that the prob is not the ghouls but the poison. now
that people are award that ghouls are unfair some people begin to use assasin
assasin + orcs or assasin + gob are weaker than the ghoulobat (ghouls + bat) but how the hell can you deal with that ?

+ i think that drakes are just too weak now , as orc i'll just hire some cheap goblins and flood them with some deadly pierce ....

for now only rebels knag and loyal are balanced all others race are quite unbalanced.
some idea i had about poison is :
- just level 2 can access poison (as thief on level 3)
or
- poison damage should be (level*2) , so that 2 for a level 1 , 4 for a level 2 and 6 for a level 3.

now when i see someone using a poison unit that just piss me off cause i know he will have and easy (and merit less) victory .

cya

joshbosh321
Posts: 212
Joined: May 14th, 2004, 10:10 pm
Location: East Brunswick, NJ

Post by joshbosh321 »

this should probably be posted on the developer's discussion's forum, but whatever.

The devs have said that they like poison the way it is. The solution is to kill units with poisoning quickly and move poisoned units back to heal before they are weakened enough that they get killed.
Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the drug store, but that's just peanuts to space.

---Douglas Adams

pg
Posts: 201
Joined: September 20th, 2004, 4:57 pm

Post by pg »

joshbosh321 wrote:move poisoned units back to heal before they are weakened enough that they get killed.
It's easy to say that but what do you do, if for example, you are fighting all trolls and assassins or all ghouls and bats? Most of your units will be poisoned quickly. If you move back to heal who attacks the enemy or defends the frontline? This is also assuming you have someplace to heal. Many maps(random especially or say Weslin Bridge) can have villages few and far between. If so many of your units are poisoned that you cannot heal them fast enough your only hope is to out fight your enemy with the extra burden of taking 8 damage a turn on some units. Your enemy might not even bother attacking you on his turn to draw out the amount of damage poison can do relative to his unit's HP.

I am starting to believe poison is overpowered in multiplayer but I am not sure it's broken(which I think skel believes). If you poison just one unit, that's 8 damage a turn without you doing anything else. Ghouls and assassins are also recruitable level 1 units which are fairly cheap at 16g. Poison is also stronger vs slow units like heavy infantry, or dwarves which one might think would be able to resist it better.

My ideas to change poison -

1. Maybe poison shouldn't last forever. Maybe a turn limit of X turns would be better. Say 2-4 turns which would be 16-32 damage. Still quite powerful considering you don't have to risk being attacked back each turn but weak enough so poisoned units could stay fighting for a while and maybe live. As poison is now you basically have to go heal in a village.

2. Make poison an attack type. That way units can have resistance to it.

3. Weaken ghouls and assassins somehow. Make them costs more, attack less times, move less, have less hp, etc anything which balances them better. I'm not sure assassins are too bad but I have a feeling even the weakened ghoul(10 hp less, and 1 less movement) might still be overpowered.

Doros
Posts: 78
Joined: October 13th, 2004, 4:02 am
Location: USA

Post by Doros »

An assassin or ghoul can only poison one unit per turn. If your opponent is using a lot of poisonous units, you could either recruit units with high amounts of hit points, so that they can live long enough to heal, or recruit a ton of level 0 units, so that you still have plenty of unpoisoned units to defend while others are being healed.

pg
Posts: 201
Joined: September 20th, 2004, 4:57 pm

Post by pg »

Doros wrote:you could either recruit units with high amounts of hit points, so that they can live long enough to heal
That usually backfires. The more HP the unit, the more powerful poison is. Poison can only take a few HP off a unit with 20HP total but if you have 50HP it can take much more.
or recruit a ton of level 0 units, so that you still have plenty of unpoisoned units to defend while others are being healed.
Not many factions have level 0 units. Corpses are immune to poison and you are unlikely to use spearmen vs poison as trolls are better.

Popito
Posts: 37
Joined: September 15th, 2004, 3:24 pm
Location: Spain

Post by Popito »

I agree with the feeling of poison been unbalancing. Its most unbalancing in ghouls as they poison with its melee attack, and most units relay on close combat making any attempt to get rid of the ghoul a risky chance to poison 2 or 3 of your own units.
I find isnt so unbalancing in assassins because of his low powered melee attack. 1 ulfs can take an assassin down without too much trouble, and nobody think ulfs are overpowered.
My view is poison units should be more expensive so you cannot flood with them (say about 25 gold or so), or make them wait for higher levels to get it, as marksman for the elves. With the increased cost you will see few and less protected and they will be less trouble.
And undeads dont need it to be a fearson faction, they will still be the strongest without the >"·$(%* ghould. To me sounds like having nukes and being unaffected by radiation, all you have to do is nuke the whole world and wait for everybody else to die while you sit and make fun.

User avatar
turin
Lord of the East
Posts: 11662
Joined: January 11th, 2004, 7:17 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by turin »

pg wrote:
Doros wrote:you could either recruit units with high amounts of hit points, so that they can live long enough to heal
That usually backfires. The more HP the unit, the more powerful poison is. Poison can only take a few HP off a unit with 20HP total but if you have 50HP it can take much more.
not actually. with high-hp-low-resistance units, healing and poisoning is less effective than with low-hp-high-resistance units. this is why healing kills HI; they hvae resistance to many types oif attacks, but poison deals 8 damage no matter what.
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm

Neoriceisgood
Art Developer
Posts: 2220
Joined: April 2nd, 2004, 10:19 pm
Contact:

Post by Neoriceisgood »

Drake burners have no trouble with ghouls =)

ott
Inactive Developer
Posts: 838
Joined: September 28th, 2004, 10:20 am

Post by ott »

Elves with enough healers should also be able to deal with poisoners. The problem is Knalgans and Loyalists, which can only get rid of poison through villages or high level units.

Neoriceisgood
Art Developer
Posts: 2220
Joined: April 2nd, 2004, 10:19 pm
Contact:

Post by Neoriceisgood »

Dwarves do _very_ bad against poison; they have high resistances as advantage; wich means quick healing but more "heavy" damage from poison; and considering knalga lacks healers and dwarves are slow poison can quickly break them down to nothing.

Doros
Posts: 78
Joined: October 13th, 2004, 4:02 am
Location: USA

Post by Doros »

ott wrote:Elves with enough healers should also be able to deal with poisoners. The problem is Knalgans and Loyalists, which can only get rid of poison through villages or high level units.
In multiplayer, it's pretty difficult to get a bunch of healers with the cures ability.

Boucman
Inactive Developer
Posts: 2119
Joined: March 31st, 2004, 1:04 pm

Post by Boucman »

the heal ability doesn't cure poison, but it prevents it from removing the 8 hp

so having a line of healers behind your units is a very effective way to counter poisoners...

I've seen it done with both drakes and elves, and it's very effective.

and if your oponent doesn't use poison, it's still a good strategy.

I think that the "discovery" of the power of poison in the forum have changed the way people play in MP. much more healer, less units but more powerfull, more care about terrain and day/night

IOW better play :wink:
Fight key loggers: write some perl using vim

grochti
Posts: 58
Joined: July 10th, 2004, 9:15 pm

Post by grochti »

Please think twice before changing anything. I think flood based strategies are a far greater threat to BfW than poison.

Just played two games against this "unbeatable bats+ghouls-strategie" vs N.N. :twisted: .

Northeners seemed to do okay . (Game aborted after 15 moves on "Duell")
Knagans smashed Undead on "Blitz" (Bezerkes killed any bat and ghoul they could geht 8) ).

telly
Posts: 260
Joined: January 12th, 2004, 5:07 am

Post by telly »

Bats used carefully (i.e. attack at night when they're off hills/mountains) should be able to beat ulfserkers.

pg
Posts: 201
Joined: September 20th, 2004, 4:57 pm

Post by pg »

I don't think poison is that bad but it can be overpowering. I am waiting to try out the a new version where ghouls are weakened(10hp less, 1 movement less). And, yes ghouls and bats aren't unbeatable(especially on smaller maps) but it seems a very strong and easy strategy to use compared to playing normally.

Post Reply