Building Strategy: Undead

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PiercingSerenity
Posts: 8
Joined: March 26th, 2011, 6:39 pm

Building Strategy: Undead

Post by PiercingSerenity » March 26th, 2011, 6:49 pm

Hey all,

Among other things, I need help developing a better initial positioning strategy for the undead. I try to set myself up to push during the night but I end up overwhelmed, losing most units that have exp. Can someone help me out with how to position/group units to increase my offense & defense?

Thanks

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Desertofsounds1
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Joined: October 30th, 2010, 2:19 pm
Location: Under your bed

Re: Building Strategy: Undead

Post by Desertofsounds1 » March 26th, 2011, 7:17 pm

It might help if you would tell if there is a problem with a special map or enemy faction, or is it always, everyday, forever, haunting you in uour grave?

PiercingSerenity
Posts: 8
Joined: March 26th, 2011, 6:39 pm

Re: Building Strategy: Undead

Post by PiercingSerenity » March 26th, 2011, 7:22 pm

It's every faction. It's almost like there's nothing I can to to keep my units properly protected or make enough of them.

If it helps, lets just talk about grouping units. How many units should I push up to battle, how many should I hold back, and how far should I space units so that they are in reach of helping each other?

Rowanthepreacher
Posts: 126
Joined: March 3rd, 2011, 7:14 pm

Re: Building Strategy: Undead

Post by Rowanthepreacher » March 26th, 2011, 7:52 pm

In general, produce only a few proper fighting units, but produce about 1/3rd of that number of the light skirmish-y types, like bats and ghosts. They can effectively back up more than one group of undead, and zip away for healing, only to be replaced by an equally damaging clone. Since they're hard to hurt, but weak, a single turn of village resting will heal them up to full health. By the time your enemies have slogged their way through the harder units, they're ready to be picked off by the light, and now experienced, units.

Few other races can match the all-terrain speed of the ghost and the bat, so use it.

PiercingSerenity
Posts: 8
Joined: March 26th, 2011, 6:39 pm

Re: Building Strategy: Undead

Post by PiercingSerenity » March 26th, 2011, 8:17 pm

Okay. Now, what about second turn recruits. In general, should I spend my first turn or two buying another bat to gather villages and position my first turn units, or should I push ahead, (I'm usually 2P, so I have ToD on my side) spending my money on units to back up the units on their way to the front lines?

I know that for different factions and different sized maps, I will need different strategies. In general (Assume a large map), however, Should I spend my second turn pushing for an attack, or build by numbers up for the next sundown.

Thanks

Velensk
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Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Building Strategy: Undead

Post by Velensk » March 26th, 2011, 8:21 pm

I cannot help but feel that the way you are asking questions is a good way to get a lot of 'it depends' for an answer.

I would find it easier to give you advice if I had a specific situation and a show of what you are already doing. If you can post a replay of your play (preferably a loss) I can take apart the replay for you and give you advice from that.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

PiercingSerenity
Posts: 8
Joined: March 26th, 2011, 6:39 pm

Re: Building Strategy: Undead

Post by PiercingSerenity » March 26th, 2011, 8:30 pm

Okay, I'll do that now

PiercingSerenity
Posts: 8
Joined: March 26th, 2011, 6:39 pm

Re: Building Strategy: Undead

Post by PiercingSerenity » March 26th, 2011, 8:33 pm

Actually; how exactly do I share a replay?

Velensk
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Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Building Strategy: Undead

Post by Velensk » March 26th, 2011, 8:38 pm

First you would have to save one (this option found under menu).

Then when you post, attach it to your post with the 'upload attachment' option below the text window.

Replays are stored in your userdata saves folder. On a mac this would be found in Users/<your username>/Library/Application Support/Wesnoth 1.whatever/saves. I am not sure where they are kept for other operating systems.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

PiercingSerenity
Posts: 8
Joined: March 26th, 2011, 6:39 pm

Re: Building Strategy: Undead

Post by PiercingSerenity » March 26th, 2011, 9:40 pm

Okay. The following replay is a defeat I suffered to the northerners. Even before the battle, I had a few questions:
- Does my leader really matter, or can I just pick whichever looks nice
- How many Scouts should I buy in the beginning?

Take a look at the replay, and let me know what I've done well (if anything), and what to work on
Attachments
Undead_defeat_Northerners.gz
(18.19 KiB) Downloaded 196 times

Velensk
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Re: Building Strategy: Undead

Post by Velensk » March 26th, 2011, 10:03 pm

I experienced a very odd technical problem when I opened that replay. It immediately began cycling through turns without stopping forward from the point when the file was supposedly stopped. Also, that was a saved game, not a replay (though normally I would be able to extract the replay from a saved game). Try opening the save, saving a replay version of it and sending me it again.

As for your questions, on most maps you aim to have all of your villages by turn 3, on Fallenstar you can afford till turn 4 due to the size but still, you only need to recruit enough bats/ghosts that you can capture most of your villages by turn 3. Your leader does matter. Leaders can be used for emergency defense, to aid a push, or failing that it never hurts to have one that is hard to assassinate. If your leader is more mobile you can do keep hopping more effectively (and/or have an easier time reaching the battle and getting back). In general I'd say the death blade is my favorite undead leader.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

PiercingSerenity
Posts: 8
Joined: March 26th, 2011, 6:39 pm

Re: Building Strategy: Undead

Post by PiercingSerenity » March 26th, 2011, 10:56 pm

First, thanks for all of the help Velensk. I never thought forums could ever do me any good, but you've been really helpful. I am about to post the replay. Some more questions

- Once I buy 2-3 high-mobility units, can I stop buying them and focus on more damaging characters?
- How liberal should I be with using my leader to aid in a push. I know it is very situational, but what warrants a leader-assisted push?

Thanks again

PiercingSerenity
Posts: 8
Joined: March 26th, 2011, 6:39 pm

Re: Building Strategy: Undead

Post by PiercingSerenity » March 26th, 2011, 10:58 pm

Here is the replay; hopefully it's properly saved
Attachments
Undead_replay.gz
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Rowanthepreacher
Posts: 126
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Re: Building Strategy: Undead

Post by Rowanthepreacher » March 27th, 2011, 2:02 am

I thought Wesnoth saved replays by default? I doubt I would've ticked that box, but half of all my saves are replays.

Usually, no matter what kind of leader you have, use them as you would a high-value mobile unit. If the battle can be won with a little push, commit the leader. If he'd have to sit around, hacking at stuff for a couple of turns, you probably need to duke it out a bit more.

Velensk
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Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Building Strategy: Undead

Post by Velensk » March 27th, 2011, 2:36 am

After you get all your villages, you buy whatever you most need that you can afford. In most situations this will be whatever unit is most ideal for combat as that is what the game is about but then again you might need to get a unit to hold a critical point 7 hexes away quickly in which case you might want a ghost, or you might just want to keep your numbers rising without increasing your upkeep and thus buy a walking corpse or a bat.

Scouts are by and large, not cost efficient for combat, however mobility has it's uses and if they help you capture your villages earlier than other units could, they effectively cost less than they normally might. Having mobile units around makes it easier to scout , flank, and can threaten to steal villages. Sometimes this is worth the extra cost. It is up to you as the player to judge what is most needed for any given situation.

Leader use should be determined by opportunity. Taking your leader away from his keep means that you are denying yourself reinforcements until he gets back which can add up pretty quickly, however sometimes you just need that extra level 2 and/or whatever capabilities it can bring onto the battlefield and when you do you should not be shy about using them. There are two costs, risk to the leader (which can be limited by controlling how much the leader is exposed, and the denial of recruit which is determined by how far away you are moving him. The player must judge whether these cost are worth the level 2.

Onto the replay:

Turn 1: This recruit will set you far behind your opponent economically. It is possible to recruit in such a way to grab two villages next turn but the way you recruited will allow you to grab none and will have to pay 4 upkeep for all those recruited units (one less for controlling the village). On this map as undead I'd suggest one ghost to the north and two bats to the south for efficient grabbing, you won't have any upkeep at all and you'll still have plenty of money to recruit combat units closer to the front where they'll actually be useful. On Fallenstar combat cannot start until about turn 4 but your units will cost upkeep every turn they are on the map (of course, you'll want your units in position by turn 4 which involves having them earlier but it is easier and cheaper to get them into position from the forward keeps.

Turn 2: You move back to your old keep. You can recruit at any keep, not just the one you start at. It is almost always advantageous to have your leader recruiting as close to the enemy as possible. This allows you to use him more liberally (remember, cost of using leader is relative to how far the fighting is away from where he is recruiting) and react quickly with the appropriate recruits. It will also make the option of swinging southward impractical.

Turn 3: You seem to not even be sending any units down south to collect the village just below your keep. In any multiplayer 1vs1 game you will want to collect a full parity of half the villages at least or else your enemy will have an income advantage that almost any positional advantage you can gain from ignoring villages will be hard pressed to combat especially as it builds up over time.

Turn 4: On this turn you do not advance to claim those last villages, perhaps baiting your opponent to claim them so you can attack him. This would have it's place however time is already not on your side and if you let him claim them it will likely not matter even if you manage to kill them both almost instantly. The two grunts are unlikely to be able to kill any of the units you put on the villages and if they are left standing in the open next to them they will be easier prey than they would be if they were in the village (though the density of dark adepts in your army will help make that less of a problem)

Turn 5: I note that you move all your units into position before attacking. This is a bad habit to get into, you want to see how each attack goes before you commit yourself to further movement. For example, between the two adepts and the skeleton if you had killed your target then the ghoul would be left standing next to the village, useless and exposed, whereas if you had moved each adept, attacked with it, and then the skeleton had finished it off, the unmoved ghoul would be able to easily saunter into the village, claim it and take advantage of its cover.

Turn 6: Why claim only one village when you can claim both? If it is because you fear counter attack, remember that although he could attack you if you claimed that village he would have to attack you from low defense terrain (making him vulnerable to counter attack) and if he fails to kill you (very likely given the situation) you will heal.

Turn 7: If your opponent is ahead of you in villages, you cannot let that go unless you can kill his leader or enough units to make up for it without substantial losses. I can understand why you would want to group your units together but you will inevitably be overwhelmed if you do not exert control over your territory. Those wolves down south will be able to buy a grunt per turn with your gold (on top of whatever he can buy with his) if you don't force them away.

Turn 8: No Comment

Turn 9: No Comment

Turn 10: The game has been over for awhile and I'm not going to bother with the inevitable mop up.

Overall: I would suggest watching the replay and observing the way your opponent plays the first few turns. Your opponent does a very efficient village grab and used his economic advantage to preform a push you simply didn't have the resources to handle even if your tactics were genius level. His tactics weren't too shabby either. Be more aggressive in grabbing and controlling villages, especially the villages alloted to you by the map. Every one of your villages that your opponent controls per turn is a net swing of six gold per turn in his favor (2 away from you, 1 less free upkeep for you, 2 gold for him, 1 more free upkeep for him).
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

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