Knalgans vs Wose

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dust7
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Knalgans vs Wose

Post by dust7 » December 11th, 2010, 11:25 pm

Hi. I am a new Knalgan player and sometimes play against a friend who likes to play Rebels.
However, I cannot find a decent strategy against mass Woses. He pretty much spends 80% of his gold for the trees and the rest for scouting/village capturing and utility units.

What unit am a supposed to fight Woses with, considered we both have equal income?

Ulfserkers: can kill a damaged Wose at night, and usually die the next round.
Fighters: can hold against Woses gold for gold only when standing on a mountain for 70% dodge, not cost effective against them on any other terrain from my experience.
Guardsman: does less damage than a Wose regenerates per round.
Thunderer: does less damage than a Wose regenerates per round.
Poacher: does less damage than a Wose regenerates per round.
Footpad: does less damage than a Wose regenerates per round.
Thief: IF I get very lucky and catch a Wose at night with some thiefs, then yes, they are cost effective. But this is not something to really rely on.
Gryphon: can kill wounded Woses at night, otherwise not cost effective in a direct fight as well. On large maps I sometimes manage to scoot around with a gryphon squad (about 3) to capture villages and kill stray units while defending with Fighters on mountains thus gaining an economic advantage, on small maps I just lose.

Any hints on how to play against this units?

psychic
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Re: Knalgans vs Wose

Post by psychic » December 11th, 2010, 11:45 pm

dust7 wrote: Thief: IF I get very lucky and catch a Wose at night with some thiefs, then yes, they are cost effective. But this is not something to really rely on.
I dont really understand why you cannot "catch" woses with thieves, who have 2 more base mp. Back stab at dusk,dawn or night absolutely slaughters them with their low defence.

Fighters can take good defence position in the mornings and slaughter them in the night. Although they have the same base mp as a wose, their move type again allows them to "catch" them.

Just_end_turn
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Re: Knalgans vs Wose

Post by Just_end_turn » December 12th, 2010, 12:13 am

psychic wrote:
dust7 wrote: Thief: IF I get very lucky and catch a Wose at night with some thiefs, then yes, they are cost effective. But this is not something to really rely on.
I dont really understand why you cannot "catch" woses with thieves, who have 2 more base mp. Back stab at dusk,dawn or night absolutely slaughters them with their low defence.

Fighters can take good defence position in the mornings and slaughter them in the night. Although they have the same base mp as a wose, their move type again allows them to "catch" them.
Yep, and both fighters and thieves can be quick...

Also, fighters are really cost effective from hills or cave. In less than 50% terrain, they can still kill woses, but you must have some units to protect them just in case you get hit twice.

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wesfreak
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Re: Knalgans vs Wose

Post by wesfreak » December 12th, 2010, 12:22 am

Try an equal-ish mix of fighters and thieves with a few gryphons for scouting (depending on map size) (and maybe an ulf, if you're confident you can protect him). try to keep your anti-wose troops together, other than the gryphons. Don't worry about your other flank too much, wosses are slow and probably won't be able to get to it without you knowing. Use the gryphon to guard the villages, and maybe leave some of them open to bait the scouts: if lose a village to a scout but then kill the scout and retake the village, it's worth it.

Try and kill his scouts if you can to limit his visibility, if fog is active, sinces woses can't see very far.

Make sure to concentrate your attacks on one unit at a time if you can, so wose regenerations doesn't help them as much, and so that your attack won't be made useless if you have to retreat.

Don't be afraid to trade dwarves, thieves or ulfs for woses: If you sacrifice one of them to kill a wose, you gain a monetary advantage.

A different strategy: Have a thieves to ulfs to fighters ratio of about 2:1:1 so that you can work in groups of 2 thieves, an ulf and a fighter. Damage a wose with a fighter, finish it off with an ulf and use the thieves as cannon fodder so that your ulf survives.

In general: only attack at night.

All of this is theory, since I've never played against wose spam.

Just_end_turn
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Re: Knalgans vs Wose

Post by Just_end_turn » December 12th, 2010, 12:35 am

wesfreak wrote:Try an equal-ish mix of fighters and thieves with a few gryphons for scouting (depending on map size) (and maybe an ulf, if you're confident you can protect him). try to keep your anti-wose troops together, other than the gryphons. Don't worry about your other flank too much, wosses are slow and probably won't be able to get to it without you knowing. Use the gryphon to guard the villages, and maybe leave some of them open to bait the scouts: if lose a village to a scout but then kill the scout and retake the village, it's worth it.

Try and kill his scouts if you can to limit his visibility, if fog is active, sinces woses can't see very far.

Make sure to concentrate your attacks on one unit at a time if you can, so wose regenerations doesn't help them as much, and so that your attack won't be made useless if you have to retreat.

Don't be afraid to trade dwarves, thieves or ulfs for woses: If you sacrifice one of them to kill a wose, you gain a monetary advantage.

A different strategy: Have a thieves to ulfs to fighters ratio of about 2:1:1 so that you can work in groups of 2 thieves, an ulf and a fighter. Damage a wose with a fighter, finish it off with an ulf and use the thieves as cannon fodder so that your ulf survives.

In general: only attack at night.

All of this is theory, since I've never played against wose spam.
If you just want to use thieves as cannon fodder, use footpads instead.

Velensk
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Re: Knalgans vs Wose

Post by Velensk » December 12th, 2010, 1:40 am

I watched you play a game against said opponent and you could really use to brush up your general skills. Simply doing that would have made the match much easier. In answer to your question, given breadth to maneuver thieves clean woses off the map. If your opponent is giving their woses proper elf support then it gets harder. Use fighters on good terrain to defend. It is generally easier to eliminate support first but once the support is gone then if you use your blade units properly you can take them down without trouble. Remember, woses are lawful and slow, at night they are not that strong and with their speed it should not be hard to force encounters at the time that is most ideal.
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wesfreak
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Re: Knalgans vs Wose

Post by wesfreak » December 12th, 2010, 3:11 am

Just_end_turn wrote: If you just want to use thieves as cannon fodder, use footpads instead.
Thieves cost less and are dual purpose: Good damage with backstab + shielding for ulfs, rather than just shielding.

Just_end_turn
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Re: Knalgans vs Wose

Post by Just_end_turn » December 12th, 2010, 3:56 am

wesfreak wrote:
Just_end_turn wrote: If you just want to use thieves as cannon fodder, use footpads instead.
Thieves cost less and are dual purpose: Good damage with backstab + shielding for ulfs, rather than just shielding.
About thieves being cheaper, this is not a good reason, they die faster, as I said footpads are better if you really only want cannon fodder.

I wouldn't use those units: 1 bersek, 1 fighter, 2 thieves but 2 fighters, 2 thieves, cheaper and probably works better.

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wesfreak
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Re: Knalgans vs Wose

Post by wesfreak » December 12th, 2010, 4:20 am

Regardless of the time of day, a wose would kill a thief in the same amount of hits as it would kill a footpad, despite the extra hp.

dust7
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Re: Knalgans vs Wose

Post by dust7 » December 12th, 2010, 6:11 am

Velensk wrote:I watched you play a game against said opponent and you could really use to brush up your general skills.
Of course you are right. We both have just started playing. I am not saying that anything is imbalanced, I just wanted some help versus a unit I cannot seem to counter.

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Mortles
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Re: Knalgans vs Wose

Post by Mortles » December 12th, 2010, 2:06 pm

As a rebel player, I have to say, that most of the times the woses are quite bad against klangans. I think, that they are less usefull against them than against loys. Two thieves at night can easilly ruin your day and the woses are too slow to help you with the ouwlaw falnking. Most of the times for my tactics great firepower of the woses is simply not worth of their cost. They could be good against thunderers or sintinels, I dunno, but I think, they are pretty easy to counter with fighters and thieves.
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MRDNRA
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Re: Knalgans vs Wose

Post by MRDNRA » December 14th, 2010, 2:49 pm

Considering that the wose at 20 gold is more expensive that all your units except gryphons, you just need village control and then I'd use a mix of fighters (for attack) and a few guardsmen for defense (especially village holding), although probably go a ratio of about 3:1 or 4:1 in terms of fighters to guardsmen. I must admit though I'm not particularly experienced so I've no idea how successful that my suggestion would be.

5dPZ
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Re: Knalgans vs Wose

Post by 5dPZ » December 14th, 2010, 6:26 pm

Movement is the key here. Wose is too slow to react to time of day. So defence at day time in village or hill/mountain with dwarves. Then trap and kill the woses at night with fighter and thief - Woses are too slow to run away when they want to...

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Desertofsounds1
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Re: Knalgans vs Wose

Post by Desertofsounds1 » December 14th, 2010, 7:38 pm

Fighters for defence and thiefs at night backstabbing for offence.
Also an ulf can finish off.

Huumy
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Re: Knalgans vs Wose

Post by Huumy » December 20th, 2010, 12:00 pm

During day defend with footpads/thieves and fighters. During night vs wose on 20% def you can use single fighter/gryphon + ulf to kill it. Also thieves should be good cause if your opponent goes mass woses he won't have many units which helps you to backstab. In big maps recruit 1 or 2 footpads just to run around his army and try to: 1. Make him spread units to catch the footpads 2. Steal villages.

Most easiest way would be just play more and always focus on what your goal is for the next 2 turns (this is because it's different just to play and focusing in what you are doing). Once you get good enough in general play you can easily win against some1 who's massing woses mostly with unit positioning and good attack timings (which are impossible to describe in post).


Edit: I read your post again and it's clear you are thinking too much on unit x vs unit y. This is not all what wesnoth is, there is also lots of unit positioning. So yes, just play more try not to think unit vs unit. Try to think more of "army" vs "army", where you will attack, where your opponent can move next turn, in which order you move your units and so on. Thinking wesnoth as unit "y" vs unit "x" on a 2 hex area where they can't move anywhere won't get you too far.

Answer to your question: play more and focus in what you are doing, if you lose. See replay, try think what can I improve? if you can't see what you did wrong send replay to forums asking what you did wrong (that way it's possible to give information that is easy to understand and 100 times more useful than talking in general).
dust7 wrote:What unit am a supposed to fight Woses with, considered we both have equal income?
Any hints on how to play against this units?
dust7 wrote:Of course you are right. We both have just started playing. I am not saying that anything is imbalanced, I just wanted some help versus a unit I cannot seem to counter.
This is why you are losing to the mass wose, because on paper mass wose beats knalgans army anytime, but in the game where there is:
1 Terran
2 Hexes where you can move (this makes the movement points more useful than on paper)
3 Turns, you can attack with unit "y" and move an unit "x" front of it to protect it before opponent can move. This is also where comes the importance of having different units instead of simply fighting in 2 hex area an unit "y" vs unit "x".

In the game woses are much weaker than in the paper.

So what I'm saying is: your way of thinking is flawed there is no unit of knalgan that you battle woses with. There is no counter to woses other than good general playing.

Send replays I'm sure you will get more useful advices how to actually improve your play. Recent similiar threads have ended with words "thank you Valensk helping to improve my play" because he's usually going through the replays turn by turn and can actually give easily usable advices based on the replays.
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