The Soutguard: The Vale of Tears

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Phlynx
Posts: 16
Joined: August 16th, 2010, 8:26 pm

The Soutguard: The Vale of Tears

Post by Phlynx » August 24th, 2010, 7:08 pm

As I had to surrender HttT: Valley of Death I spend my time playing the beginner campaigns AOI, which was not easy at all, without the advice to use elvish druids and sorceresses I wouldn't have succeeded, and now Southguard. In order not to be bored I started it in the normal level and on that it was not easy at all. Very often I had to use up to five of my units to beat down one footpad. To come along with the skeletons lateron without enough units making impact damage was hard either.

I had the feeling there was no chance to learn something about ground-controll and defeat on detail. What did I do wrong? I add the replay if somebody wants to look.
DS-Das_Tal_der_Tränen_Wiederholung_anzeigen.gz
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monochromatic
Posts: 1549
Joined: June 18th, 2009, 1:45 am

Re: The Soutguard: The Vale of Tears

Post by monochromatic » August 24th, 2010, 9:18 pm

I saw your replay. You played on the hardest difficulty, what did you expect? If you wanted something easy, shouldn't you have picked the easiest or even medium difficulty?

Seriously, if you feel playing the higher levels are beyond you, then play the easier levels! You needed to use five units to hit down a Footpad on 70% defense. Think of it also like this: Deoran never gets more than 40% defense. Yet he didn't get killed even having faced 10+ units.

Code: Select all

AI: Ooh, that's so unfair! I get even more gold than you and I'm allied against you 2-1, but I still lose! The game is bugged!
You: But I needed to use 5 units to kill one of your Footpads! The game is too hard!
See the difference?

You didn't do anything wrong in the replay, except maybe for leaving units behind wherever you go. Btw, what happened to the loyal peasants from scenario 2?
Do not read, rant warning ahead:

User avatar
fenny
Posts: 39
Joined: August 19th, 2010, 2:22 pm

Re: The Soutguard: The Vale of Tears

Post by fenny » August 24th, 2010, 10:07 pm

First, it's no shame to play on easy - i actually play Bad Moon Rising part II on easy, because it's some time ago i played it last and it's more fun not to restart every scenario again and again.
I watched your replay and i found some things: You have some units sitting in villages the whole time, this is useless.
You're playing very defensive and this cost you a lot of time. Your enemy can hit you first and choose time and location for his attacks. Even the strongest unit only can attack once per turn, so don't be to afraid of them.
When you send some units down to the outlaw leader at the beginning to distract them, they won't fell in your back.
And it's very important to capture enemy villages, because this reduces the income of your enemy, he can't recruit so much new units.

Max
Posts: 1449
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 12:41 am

Re: The Soutguard: The Vale of Tears

Post by Max » August 24th, 2010, 10:39 pm

you've been rather lucky in terms of hitting footpads on 70% defense.

try to take the initiative when facing the undead - you could do much better there. don't move injured units unless you have to. and why did you ignore the three units at your keep?

Phlynx
Posts: 16
Joined: August 16th, 2010, 8:26 pm

Re: The Soutguard: The Vale of Tears

Post by Phlynx » August 25th, 2010, 9:14 am

elvish_sovereign wrote:I saw your replay. You played on the hardest difficulty, what did you expect? If you wanted something easy, shouldn't you have picked the easiest or even medium difficulty?

Seriously, if you feel playing the higher levels are beyond you, then play the easier levels! You needed to use five units to hit down a Footpad on 70% defense. Think of it also like this: Deoran never gets more than 40% defense. Yet he didn't get killed even having faced 10+ units.

Code: [ Select all ]
AI: Ooh, that's so unfair! I get even more gold than you and I'm allied against you 2-1, but I still lose! The game is bugged!
You: But I needed to use 5 units to kill one of your Footpads! The game is too hard!

See the difference?

You didn't do anything wrong in the replay, except maybe for leaving units behind wherever you go. Btw, what happened to the loyal peasants from scenario 2?

Do not read, rant warning ahead:
Okay. You are having trouble with these campaigns. What do you want us to do? Do we have to change the game completely and re-balance the whole thing because YOU thought it was too hard? Most people finish them and learn, and then they do the harder campaigns/harder difficulties. I'm not saying you are not as smart as them, but that you are whining and complaining. You feel the odds are against you. So what? In most FPS games, you are one man against practically an army! You don't complain about that? Go play on the MP server if you want to have a fair match.

AOI: Yes, if you don't level shamans in campaigns, you are screwed. Period. Take LoW. By the end you need to have something like 4 shydes and 4 slyphs. If you don't learn that in AOI, where would you learn it? In LoW where hordes of trolls and orcs come at you, it is difficult to level shamans, thus these beginner campaigns teach you these tactics you must learn yourself. I'll bet you played the campaign on medium or hard difficulty, and that's why you are complaining.
TSG: If the game gave you impact units and you could tear through the undead, where would the fun be? It also shows you that Swordsmen/Knights/Cavalry are very effective against undead as well, but just impact, fire, and arcane.

Forget ground-control and defeat in detail, okay? Learning that won'd help you beat the game. It's you own skills you have to rely on.
I saw your replay. You played on the hardest difficulty, what did you expect? If you wanted something easy, shouldn't you have picked the easiest or even medium difficulty?

Seriously, if you feel playing the higher levels are beyond you, then play the easier levels! You needed to use five units to hit down a Footpad on 70% defense. Think of it also like this: Deoran never gets more than 40% defense. Yet he didn't get killed even having faced 10+ units.

Code: Select all

AI: Ooh, that's so unfair! I get even more gold than you and I'm allied against you 2-1, but I still lose! The game is bugged!
You: But I needed to use 5 units to kill one of your Footpads! The game is too hard!
See the difference?

You didn't do anything wrong in the replay, except maybe for leaving units behind wherever you go. Btw, what happened to the loyal peasants from scenario 2?
Do not read, rant warning ahead:
What you say is true, it was my decision to play this game and I shouldn't complain and whine. Most of the games I played so far are constructed like this, they make it interesting and difficult just by restricting the players possibilities or they just mislead him, don't know how to explain. It's not enough to have a colourful game and a nice story.

You can play something for many hours and have finally to face the circumstance that one decision was absolutely wrong. Referring to BfW: something went wrong and you have to restart the whole campaign, there is no chance to learn during the game and work on the decisions. What is left is the feeling of having wasted time.

For example the druids and shamans with their spell to slow down enemies: I observed that this spell so often fails, does so less damage, is the only spell which is depending on the sorrounding. So of course I didn't use them very offensive (although throughout AOI and TSG I really changed this attitude, in one scenario I used a shyde as a scout because of the surrounding).

There is this infantry captain Sir Gerrick: his resistances are quite the best a human can have but it is taken back by the environment modifiers, which are the worst of all units I have seen so far.

Just in general, the units can collect damage without limitation, so why don't they collect healing as often as thinkable? Sitting in town not having moved and two healers around = 26 hp back :mrgreen: . That was a joke in a way, I know the game is like it is and you cannot change it, this aspect of luck you cannot take away.

Although it's stupid I complain and whine here in this forum because I have no acquaintance around me who plays on pc and knows this game.

It's a tactic game and it is based on luck, in a way a contradiction.

As I finished TSG I have to admit it was not that hard and what you mentioned I already found out. Everything is manageable and I finished this campaign with 10 level 3 units, one of the loyal peasants leveled into a life guard.

It is superfluous to quote it here, but read it and regard what is already written. Medium level is not suitable for beginners, decisions are quite dangerous, because they can lead into having to restart a whole campaign and so on. Without mid-scenario saving I couldn't think of playing BfW
3.2. Getting the Most Fun Out of the Game
Remember, the idea of a game is to have fun! Here are some recommendations from the development team on how to get the most fun out of the game:

Consider playing the campaign on "Medium" difficulty level, especially if you have prior experience with strategy games. We feel you’ll find it much more rewarding.
Don’t sweat it too much when you lose some units. The campaign was designed to accommodate the player losing some units along the way.
Don’t abuse saved games. Long ago, Wesnoth only allowed saving the game at the end of a scenario. Mid-scenario saving was added as a convenience to use if you had to continue the game another day, or to protect against crashes. We do not recommend loading mid-scenario saved games over and over because your White Mage keeps getting killed. Learn to protect your White Mage instead, and balance risks! That is part of the strategy.
If you must load a saved game, we recommend going back to the start of the scenario, so that you choose a new strategy that works, rather than simply finding random numbers that favor you.
But remember, the aim is to have fun! You may have different tastes than the developers, so do what you enjoy most! If you enjoy loading the saved game every time you make a mistake, looking for the perfect game where you never lose a unit, by all means, go right ahead!
Fenny wrote:I watched your replay and i found some things: You have some units sitting in villages the whole time, this is useless.
You're playing very defensive and this cost you a lot of time. Your enemy can hit you first and choose time and location for his attacks. Even the strongest unit only can attack once per turn, so don't be to afraid of them.
Thank you for having done so.
I wonder how to change this. Regarding all the circumstances like daytime and surrounding I can't help but waiting.
Max wrote:try to take the initiative when facing the undead - you could do much better there. don't move injured units unless you have to. and why did you ignore the three units at your keep?
That's the reason why I asked for help. Having watched some replays of HttT: Valley of Dead (this one after The princess of Wesnoth) I wonder how to take the initiative in this way, still not getting used to sacrifice units.

In the whole, I think those ones who are able to do a campaign in one slide are admirable. For those it seems to be written, this game. The stories are great, as far as I come to know them.

chak_abhi
Posts: 327
Joined: June 24th, 2010, 3:37 pm

Re: The Soutguard: The Vale of Tears

Post by chak_abhi » August 30th, 2010, 5:23 pm

I have completed TSG on hard recently,and can provide certain tips to help.
In the "vale of tears" you face 2 enemies,among which the undead are far more dangerous.You need to divide your troops in 2 fronts.The 1st one which goes to the outlaw camp must consist of Ethiliel,1/2 L2 melee tank like swordsmen, and 3-4 bowmen & spearmen (depending on your resources).The 2nd one which goes to the undead must be strong,with Sir Gerrick,2 cavalrymen including Jarek,Minister Hylas,any available swordsmen/Royal guards.Sir Gerrick should be preferably stationed on a village,and the other troops should be positioned around him so that they can benefit from his leadership and can be protected when needed (Sir Gerrick is a great damage sinker).The cavalry should capture villages,steal kills and retreat quickly if injured.Be careful not to put them in the range of bone shooters.Use Minister Hylas carefully,he can kill any undead alone in daytime,his healing is invaluable.Never put him in the range of revenants.
A peasant must be sent quickly to face the undead.He will surely be killed quickly,but this event will trigger the appearance of 2 elvish bodyguards(rangers) near Ethiliel.So the group marching towards the outlaw camp becomes quite strong.
Deoran and 1 swordsman/Royal guard should proceed towards a village facing a gap in the mountains,though which revenants or bone shooters can attack.Deoran must be L2 by now,and has a strong impact attack.
Take on the undeads in daytime as far as possible,retreat during night.Finish the outlaws quickly,this shouldn't be hard.The undeads can be overcome by the 3rd day.Then march Ethiliel towards the marked village.Remember to capture as many villages as possible,this will be useful for your finances.
I would have liked to attach my replay,but I have deleted it a week ago.If you can post a start of the game autosave I can try to help.

chak_abhi
Posts: 327
Joined: June 24th, 2010, 3:37 pm

Re: The Soutguard: The Vale of Tears

Post by chak_abhi » August 31st, 2010, 4:28 pm

Hi Phlynx,
I had created a save of turn 1 from your replay and completed this scenario.I'm posting an autosave of turn 18.Just complete the game by sending Ethiliel to Mebrin's village and you are through.
However I must mention that you had made a bad choice of units all throughout.You had picked a longbowman,its nice,I've levelled it to a master bowman,but he won't be much useful in the subsequent scenarios,where undead are abundant.But for what reason had you upgraded a spearman to a javelineer,instead of a swordsman?At least blade attacks are more helpful against undead than pierce!I upgraded a spearman to a swordsman,and another spearman has 33/42 XP,so he can upgrade in the very next scenario.I also upgraded a cavalryman to a dragoon.However the only drawback was that I had to abuse the save-load highly due to the limited choice of good units.Hope you don't mind it.
TSG is an excellent campaign for beginners.Best of luck with the next scenarios!
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