Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

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Phlynx
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Joined: August 16th, 2010, 8:26 pm

Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

Post by Phlynx »

I couldn't decide to ask here in this subforum for some advice or just to criticise in the feedback forum. From time to time I play BfW and when It's to hard for me I take it away from the pc. A few days ago I downloaded the most recent version and started with the campaign at the top of the list. Being frustrated I started to search for some advice here in this portal, but besides some general statements like you should learn to play BfW by starting with not so difficult campaigns, to use a good unit management I didn't find something useful. So I ask directly: how is somebody supposed to to solve this part of the campaign. Latest in round 13 I already lost so many important units that it's worthless to go on.
But I have no idea: going to soon into the town is suicide, staying at the first bridge does not really help. I don't know which units to use, and I started the whole campaign already three time, to get at least one red magician, two white magicians, one druid, one elven magician, two outlaws, three rangers and 260 pieces of gold (I admit, in a way I cheat, I repeat a situation so long till the result fits). But all that doesnot help, when the first skeletons arrive I am defeated. And it doesnot help to take care of the daytime, to retreat doesn't help, because it doesn't create a secure situation. The mixture of units in this chapter orcs and skeleton is unbearable.
And that's not fine.

Although BfW is a piece of work the developers can be proud of, it's nice and interesting and they make it in their free time, but it is so hard and in my eyes unfair, even HoMM is more easy to play. That brings me to my main general critic that refers to most of the games: to make it interesting they give to much advantages to the opponent. Of course a game should be challenge, but does that always need to be unfair? I don't remember the exact chapter, I looked into the descriptions and saw, that the opponent started with 60 pieces of gold, but was able to recruit 6 or 7 units right at the beginning. How does that work? That's just an example.
Of course it is interesting to regard the advantages of the different units and to reflect upon what to do in which situation. It's ok, when you find the fitting key. But that doesnot work always.
Just as an example: the level 2 orcs have so much more hp and do more damage, that two of them are enough to destroy any of the players unit. The other way round one needs to three units to defeat one orc. When I think of the ghost on this island after the wreckage, with 6 rogues and nobody hits it.
Regarding SoE: which units should you use to go against so different enemies like skeletons and orks? How to get enough pieces of gold to recruit enough units, where to position them.

The pieces of advice given in the book of tactics are nice, but nothing which a player cannot develope by himself.
Many situations are based on having luck rolling the dices. And that's the reason, why I cheat in the described way. A strategic game should not base too much on luck.

However, I don't want to annoy anybody, but I regard it as a pity, such a nice thing and it's just for cracks and persons who are able to deal good with bad luck.

Schierke
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Re: Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

Post by Schierke »

You have a decent recall list and enough gold so i'm guessing it all comes to a lack of tactical understansing of the game so it would have been better if you posted one of you replays to see what the problem really is.

In my case, i took the other path (the peninsula instead of the Island of the Dead) in the previous scenario, and probably you should have as well, since it's a lot easyer and you endup better prepared for the siege.

I had a lot of leveled units so i sent my main army and a force of merman to the river to draw the orcs to fight on the water and shore where they are easy cake, while i sent a group of horseman/knights/lancers to the east gate to assasinate the leader together with the local thieves, and they did.

This meant that by turn seven the orc leader was dead and most of the orcish forces had been slaughtered on the shore, meaning i had enough time to prepare a defence against the incoming undead.

The thing with the undead is that while there a lot of them, they are just level 1 skeletons and are no real threat at day time, so you should just form a wall with you most resistent units in the cities and castles and rotate any seriously wounded to the rear for healing as you slowly but surely wear down the undead's numbers.

The simple fact is that luck plays a big factor in Wesnoth, but using the right strategy and tactics are even more important. The key is learning risk management, when to risk offense, to what goal and in what way and then you start getting good results most of the time.
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Joram
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Re: Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

Post by Joram »

Hard for me to comment, because I usually play on hard, which means more enemies in earlier levels, which means more experience, which means I have almost-level 3 units coming into the scenario (you are playing on a lower difficulty, aren't you?). Almost lvl 3 > lvl 3 > lvl 2, so if you can manage it, I'd suggest you try.

This thread has prompted an idea: Include, bundled into the game, replays of someone going through HttT on easy. If not in the game, put them up on the website where people can download them. These replays would have to be chosen carefully, since we wouldn't want to put up one unnaturally lucky, or one where it was a huge struggle. But I think it would help mitigate these sorts of problems.

Especially putting HttT top of the list; it is going to be the first one that 70% of people try. And it really isn't a good campaign to try first. It's too long, and small errors early compound too much. If the players had a "reference" as to how well they should be doing, then I think we'd see a sharp decrease in the number of "Had trouble with Siege of Elensfar" threads.
I don't remember the exact chapter, I looked into the descriptions and saw, that the opponent started with 60 pieces of gold, but was able to recruit 6 or 7 units right at the beginning. How does that work?
It doesn't. So far as I know, BfW is completely honest with the gold. They may have been cheap units, or it is also possible that you triggered some event that gave the leader more gold (though it should be made obvious that something occurred, like some dialogue). Maybe you were mistaken. I don't know. That is curious.

I'm attaching my replay of the scenario. I hope it helps a bit. Overall, I was somewhat lucky. Nothing extreme, but some. I used a different approach than Schierke, involving a frontal assualt on the gate, using the castle hexes to stand off the first assualt, slowers and thieves to mitigate the second, and by their third turn, the orcs were pretty much gone.

The skeletons were essentially just free experience after that.


P.S. You might get better comments if you attached a replay of your own. It's easier to say what you are doing wrong than what you should do right because there are so many "right" ways to do things.
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The Fires of Pride 0.3, a heavily story based campaign.
On hold while I try and finish my book

monochromatic
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Re: Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

Post by monochromatic »

Another SoE thread....

I must emphasize: if you are playing with elves,

STAY IN THE FOREST

Since you are not playing on Hard, you don't need to rush the orcs! Let them come to you. Do you know why you were getting slaughtered at the bridge or when rushing into the city? Why he only needs 1-2 units to kill your units? It's because it's night. Orcs get a 25% bonus at night. That's huge. It can decide the battle. So unless you have a couple lvl 3 fighters/tanks to soak up damage, don't attack the orcs! Let them attack you. By the time he has finished recruiting, it will be around dusk. From my experience the orcs always group together north of the river until it is night before rushing south. Hold off until the morning (you should be able to do with that many units (260 gold? That's way plenty plus you even great defensive advantages inn the forests.)) and then crush them in the morning. Orcs, having a 25% nighttime bonus, consequently get -25% in the morning which then should be easy to clean them up. By now the skeletons will be entering the city. Your mages and sorceress will be invaluable here. And again, do not attack at night, since skeletons are chaotic as well.

It's a matter of patience and timing, not troops or unlucky rolls.
(reminds me of a recent play of Temple of the Deep in TRoW. My statistics in the end were around -90 inflicted, +35 taken. I still won. It was like for 5-6 turns almost no one hit, even my mages. And all the deathblades and bone shooters got all of theirs. But shuffling well I still made it through.)

Some questions though:
Why didn't you level any fighters? Captains are great for leading level ones and Heroes do tanking very well.
Why did you only level archers into rangers? Marksmen/Sharpshooters are great for wearing down enemy leaders.
What happened to Haldiel (the loyal horseman from Blackwater) and your other horsemen? Knights make this scenario 3x easier. I'm serious.
Did you level Konrad? His leadership his very helpful and he also become a great tank unit.

I'm totally agreeing HttT is not the best starter campaign. If you want to ease into it, I'd suggest you start playing campaigns like TSG, AToTB, or AOI. Personally I'd like to see TSG polished and made the official beginner campaign.

Joram
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Re: Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

Post by Joram »

Regarding SoE: which units should you use to go against so different enemies like skeletons and orks? ... where to position them.
It's interesting that you have had three people respond to that last query, and each response was completely different.
Spoiler:
The Fires of Pride 0.3, a heavily story based campaign.
On hold while I try and finish my book

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zookeeper
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Re: Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

Post by zookeeper »

If you complain about difficulty, always post your beginning-of-scenario save so someone can just take it, play it, and then post a replay.

Phlynx
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Re: Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

Post by Phlynx »

Many thanks for your answers. I'm aware that those SoE threads must be boring in a way and I didn't expect any reply.
You have a decent recall list and enough gold so i'm guessing it all comes to a lack of tactical understansing of the game so it would have been better if you posted one of you replays to see what the problem really is.
That's definitely true. I look at map and try to find a good position to wait and let the opponents come and that didn't work so far. I am to less flexibel with my strategies.
Some questions though:
Why didn't you level any fighters? Captains are great for leading level ones and Heroes do tanking very well.
You mean the normal elven warriors? Does that mean they have a moral effect? It's true, I didn't regard them at all, they seemed to be too weak.
What happened to Haldiel (the loyal horseman from Blackwater) and your other horsemen? Knights make this scenario 3x easier. I'm serious.
Haldiel already is a knight, I mean he leveled one time. To get an orc down, I enjoyed it to use one or two archers/rangers and then finish it with Haldiel.
It doesn't. So far as I know, BfW is completely honest with the gold. They may have been cheap units, or it is also possible that you triggered some event that gave the leader more gold (though it should be made obvious that something occurred, like some dialogue). Maybe you were mistaken. I don't know. That is curious.
Can be true and I looked superficial. I didn't find the right scenario, but when I looked in SoE I was convinced that it is dealing fair.
P.S. You might get better comments if you attached a replay of your own. It's easier to say what you are doing wrong than what you should do right because there are so many "right" ways to do things.
I did'nt find a replay of SoE in my save, just replays of other scenarios. Besides, I use the german version, would it be useful for you?

Anyway, many thanks for your answers. I'll look and start it again.

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Maiklas3000
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Re: Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

Post by Maiklas3000 »

Phlynx wrote:
Why didn't you level any fighters? Captains are great for leading level ones and Heroes do tanking very well.
You mean the normal elven warriors? Does that mean they have a moral effect? It's true, I didn't regard them at all, they seemed to be too weak.
Yes, he meant Elvish Fighters. They can level to Captains, which have leadership, giving a +25% damage bonus to adjacent level 1 units. Leadership is incredibly powerful and important. Elvish Fighters are cheap, so it doesn't matter too much when they die. Captains have low HP, but you should have them jogging around behind the front, lending their leadership safely: attack with adjacent level 1's, move Captain, attack with adjacent level 1's, move Captain, etc. Feed easy kills to your Captains, so they can level to Marshalls, which are much more valuable, giving a +50% bonus to level 1's and +25% to level 2's. Marshalls can help level 1 and 2 units to level much more quickly than they could on their own.

See http://units.wesnoth.org/1.8/C/mainline.html#Elves

My strategy for this scenario is most like Joram's. I use fast units to establish a beachhead, not just on the two southern fortress hexes but preferably also the two eastern ones. I try to keep a good line. I ask the thieves to come later, on the far side of the city, after I've taken a village in the city (or I should say another village, since I usually already have one.) I weaken units with my front line, and then backstab them at night with the thieves. I tend to lose several of the thieves. I don't use Mermen at all in this part of the battle, but I might have a Priestess swimming upstream for use against the undead. I try to finish off the orcs before the undead have crossed the river in force, but it's not a disaster if you have to let the undead take a big chunk of ground in the city initially.

HomerJ
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Re: Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

Post by HomerJ »

Phlynx wrote:
I did'nt find a replay of SoE in my save, just replays of other scenarios. Besides, I use the german version, would it be useful for you?
The replay gets saved if you finish the scenario, however, a normal save is just as useful, be it either the beginning of scenario save, or the one where you think your position is hopeless.
There is no difference in the savegames of different languages, so no problem. Btw, how did you decide on the Thieves' proposal? Most of the time its beneficial to have them pop up once you established yourself in the south part of the city.



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zookeeper
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Re: Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

Post by zookeeper »

Playing on easy using no recalls, Konrad at lvl1 with no xp and minimum starting gold, I beat the orcish leader on turn 6, leveling up Konrad with that kill. There's only one wounded grunt left in the castle and one wounded warrior on the west island. I lost a fighter, scout, and one of the thieves. Now I'm facing a whopping 3 skeletons and 3 skeleton archers.

Doesn't sound too hard to me, really.

EDIT: Oh, and since I just :n-skipped to the scenario from the first one, I didn't have horsemen or mages to recruit either.

Velensk
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Re: Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

Post by Velensk »

I may be wrong, but wouldn't just n:-skipping to the level give you Delphador? Would be a substancial advantage over a person who actually played through.
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zookeeper
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Re: Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

Post by zookeeper »

Velensk wrote:I may be wrong, but wouldn't just n:-skipping to the level give you Delphador? Would be a substancial advantage over a person who actually played through.
He's not auto-recalled so naturally I didn't use him.

Phlynx
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Re: Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

Post by Phlynx »

zookeeper wrote:Playing on easy using no recalls, Konrad at lvl1 with no xp and minimum starting gold, I beat the orcish leader on turn 6, leveling up Konrad with that kill. There's only one wounded grunt left in the castle and one wounded warrior on the west island. I lost a fighter, scout, and one of the thieves. Now I'm facing a whopping 3 skeletons and 3 skeleton archers.

Doesn't sound too hard to me, really.

EDIT: Oh, and since I just :n-skipped to the scenario from the first one, I didn't have horsemen or mages to recruit either.
How does that work? I play in medium and there is no chance to enter the town, too many orcs. On the other hand, I just think using the decision to infiltrate, but what do you do with the rest of the orcs? Do they vanish when the leader is killed?

So far no decision of mine did help me, I tried to infiltrate and in one case it even helped the opponent to surround my line at the water. Meeting the thieves in the town let them go down as quick as they appear.

Once again I started the whole campaign and regarding one remark I took the other way, not via ship to this island but over the land and I am just busied with Muff Malal. And that's what I meant before: he starts with 50 pieces of gold and in each turn he recruits 5 units. In a way it's a joke. Once again the question arises, how is that supposed to be succeeded? Na ja, it's not important to ask that question.
DT-Die_Belagerung_Elensef..._Runde_3.gz
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I don't know, what is deleted when saving the new games, but there should be a more actual turn, unfortunately it is not, so you don't see so much.
DT-Die_Halbinsel_von_Muff_Malal-Autospeichern8.gz
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And that's what I am playing in the moment. You just see that I improved my unit management and the rest is chaotic. I imagined to use 4 scouts and to go on to Mull Malal very quick with a close and strong formation. Starting with 348 pieces of gold I thought it could be possible. But what followed is somehow horrible and for me just a joke, nothing works.

P.S.: By the way, what really makes it interisting is the circumstance that the program always makes it different, so you don't get used to much to a certain way or strategy.
Last edited by Phlynx on August 19th, 2010, 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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zookeeper
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Re: Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

Post by zookeeper »

Phlynx wrote:Once again I started the whole campaign and regarding one remark I took the other way, not via ship to this island but over the land and I am just busied with Muff Malal. And that's what I meant before: he starts with 50 pieces of gold and in each turn he recruits 5 units. In a way it's a joke. Once again the question arises, how is that supposed to be succeeded?
By having 24 villages and 51 income.

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fenny
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Re: Heir to the throne: the siege of elensefar

Post by fenny »

I like the straightforward approach: i sacrifice some units but spare some time, that gives me more money in later scenarios. I prefer the undead isle scenario, because it's the only one to get outlaws, which are very useful in underground scenarios and against undead units. I played this in medium difficulty and completed the campaign later.


Hi Phlynx, i downloaded your savegame, and here's my solution: (I hope, i got the attachments right, i'm a bit confused, because it's my first post here, and they have the same name).

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