Dark Sorcerer tank

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Zarel
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Re: Dark Sorcerer tank

Post by Zarel » August 17th, 2010, 3:05 am

Yoyobuae wrote:High HP or not, won't it die to a couple of attacks from pretty much any lv2 units? 48 HP ain't that high when many lv2s surpass 30 dmg total with their main attack.
You have to remember that 30+ damage is assuming all their attacks hit. The only L2 that has a greater than 50% chance of doing 28 or more damage on level terrain is the Thunderguard, and that's because it only has one attack.
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Skrim
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Re: Dark Sorcerer tank

Post by Skrim » August 17th, 2010, 10:12 am

hhyloc wrote:
Zarel wrote:If the Bone Shooter only had a few weaknesses, it'd be fine, but it's weak to half the damage types in existence. I'd prefer a ghost - that at least removes the Impact weakness.
:o Wow, talking about Ghost, after checking Wesnoth Units Database, I found that the Ghost has 50% resistance to all type of physical damage! It even has 10% resistance to Fire! His only weakness is a -10% Arcane. :shock:
I didn't know that until now. Well, Ghost rocks! (see my sig and my avatar)
This is an illusion. If you notice, the Ghost has only 18 hp - on par with most level 0 units, and much less than most level 1s. It is, in fact, exactly half of a Spearman's base hp. The resistances counteract this - half the hp, half the damage taken. Of course, there is an advantage in that it makes drain-healing effective, and makes village-healing twice as effective. The downside of course, is that odd-number damage attacks get rounded up. So healing aside, the ghost is still relatively fragile.

In light of this, its low fire resistance and arcane weakness actually get translated into a 40% fire weakness and 60% arcane weakness on a 36 hp unit. So it actually fares worse against these damage types than most other Undead units do.
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As for who's the better tank, I'd choose the Dark Sorceror. The Bone Shooter may have resistances that numerically outweigh its weaknesses, but if you consider that it's twice as likely to get hit by something it's weak to than it is to get hit by something it resists, then it shapes up much worse. Its rare that someone will intentionally go attack it using piercing or cold damage - at most, they'll use blade if nothing else is available.

Loyalists, Rebels, Northerners and Knalgans can all theoretically counter the Shoota' with their impact-melee units. The Loyalists have it hardest with the HI's pathetic mobility, and with their horses being pierce-weak, the Shoota' could be offensively useful too. If they really want to get rid of it, though, they could always use suicidal Mages.
The Shoota' might also be a good tank against Drakes, maybe, since the only real ways for them to hurt it are to hit it with lots of low-damage melee attacks, suicide Burners against it, or somehow get a Thrasher. The Sorc would still be vastly superior on the offense, though.
Aid finally, it could tank against the Undead. It would be pretty crappy on the offense, given the widespread pierce resistances or the arcane retaliation of the Adept, but it would be hard-ish to bring down unless the enemy mobs it in melee or, again, uses DAs without bothering for the retal.

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Re: Dark Sorcerer tank

Post by hhyloc » August 17th, 2010, 11:52 am

Skrim wrote: This is an illusion. If you notice, the Ghost has only 18 hp - on par with most level 0 units, and much less than most level 1s. It is, in fact, exactly half of a Spearman's base hp. The resistances counteract this - half the hp, half the damage taken. Of course, there is an advantage in that it makes drain-healing effective, and makes village-healing twice as effective. The downside of course, is that odd-number damage attacks get rounded up. So healing aside, the ghost is still relatively fragile.

In light of this, its low fire resistance and arcane weakness actually get translated into a 40% fire weakness and 60% arcane weakness on a 36 hp unit. So it actually fares worse against these damage types than most other Undead units do.
Ahhh yes, you are right, thanks for reminding me, but I did know that the Ghost has only 18 HP and it's a relatively fragile units. :)
Skrim wrote: As for who's the better tank, I'd choose the Dark Sorceror. The Bone Shooter may have resistances that numerically outweigh its weaknesses, but if you consider that it's twice as likely to get hit by something it's weak to than it is to get hit by something it resists, then it shapes up much worse. Its rare that someone will intentionally go attack it using piercing or cold damage - at most, they'll use blade if nothing else is available.

Loyalists, Rebels, Northerners and Knalgans can all theoretically counter the Shoota' with their impact-melee units. The Loyalists have it hardest with the HI's pathetic mobility, and with their horses being pierce-weak, the Shoota' could be offensively useful too. If they really want to get rid of it, though, they could always use suicidal Mages.
The Shoota' might also be a good tank against Drakes, maybe, since the only real ways for them to hurt it are to hit it with lots of low-damage melee attacks, suicide Burners against it, or somehow get a Thrasher. The Sorc would still be vastly superior on the offense, though.
Aid finally, it could tank against the Undead. It would be pretty crappy on the offense, given the widespread pierce resistances or the arcane retaliation of the Adept, but it would be hard-ish to bring down unless the enemy mobs it in melee or, again, uses DAs without bothering for the retal.
:evil: Gahhhh! I have to admit that you're right. I am 50% converted to the DS side :?
But do remember:
I wrote:
According to my statistics, lvl 2 units with:
Melee blade, pierce or cold: 45 units
Melee impact, fire or arcane: 23 units
Ranged blade, pierce or cold: 22 units
Ranged impact, fire or arcane: 18 units
(note that units like Dark Sorcerer has both cold and arcane ranged, in this case I choose the damage type that do most damage to the Bone Shooter, so I put him him in ifa ranged group but not bpc ranged group).
So in many cases (facing bpc foes) the Bone Shooter will perform as a tank better than the Dark Sorcerer. (of course when facing ifa foes the Dark Sorcerer is a better choice, but the chance to face such foes will less than the chance to face bpc foes )
I wrote: Agree, but it will only work with fog of war/shroud turn off or both player choose a specified faction (not random). Without these, your opponent won't know what units you have, when he realized, you at least already have some advantages over him, then if he spam bone-crushing units you can spawn Dark Sorcerer to counter him.
Given that you are playing MP with Age of Heroes era and fog of war/shroud turn on (or even better, both MP factions are random and you got Undead) or some campaigns, recruit BS will give you some initial advantages.

Edit: Typo
Last edited by hhyloc on August 18th, 2010, 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Yoyobuae
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Re: Dark Sorcerer tank

Post by Yoyobuae » August 17th, 2010, 6:56 pm

Skrim wrote:In light of this, its low fire resistance and arcane weakness actually get translated into a 40% fire weakness and 60% arcane weakness on a 36 hp unit. So it actually fares worse against these damage types than most other Undead units do.
Actually, -80% vs fire and -120% vs arcane would be the proper conversion when translated to a 36HP unit. The effect of each resistance increment is doubled also.

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Re: Dark Sorcerer tank

Post by Yoshi » August 17th, 2010, 10:53 pm

I had no idea this forum was gonna get so many posts. I am not trying to start a trolling thread or anything. I am trying to figure out the merits of Dark Sorcerer and if he makes a good tank or not.

The Dark Sorcerer has two things going for him but I am starting to think the Bone Shooter might be a better tank.

1. He has higher HP
2. He has no abnormal restistances.

For example a level 1 wose in daytime does 19-2 to Bone shooter and he has 40hp
A level 1 wose in daytime does 16-2 to a Dark Sorcerer and he has 48hp

Well both can survive 2 hits and the bone shooter is also more ulf proof which makes him a little better at tanking as well.
Since most melee units do not have high accuracy strikes if you put a bone shooter on say a castle with 60% he would have a decent change to avoid damage and if he did get hit he could get 2 hits from a wose and he would also lash back with his knife and this is in daytime. If you try to ulf him he will resist blade at 40% and fight back with his 4-2 blade in daytime against an ulf while a DS will hit 2-3 in daytime against an ulf.

Since the Bone Shooter is a little more ulf proof I would say he can be a decent tank. In general most tanking units seem to be melee orientated, but alot of them get defensive ranged attacks such as the Dwarvish Sentinal, Elvish Champion and Orcish Warlord.

Yoyobuae
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Re: Dark Sorcerer tank

Post by Yoyobuae » August 18th, 2010, 4:46 pm

If I'm fighting an army of mostly elvish archers at day, I'll probably kill the few elvish fighters they have, then use Burners as tanks (I'm using drakes). A dextrous archer hurts (7-4) but he gets hurts back the same, and he has less HP. And right behind those are a good few melee units ready for a nasty counter attack. :D

In the end, the opponent would be unlikely to attack at all. Therefore it really doesn't matter if Burners make a good tank or not (they kinda do because of high HP, but kinda not because of poor defense). Best kind of defense, convincing the enemy not to attack at all. :)

This is, of course, for multiplayer.

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Re: Dark Sorcerer tank

Post by hhyloc » August 19th, 2010, 5:01 am

Yoyobuae wrote:If I'm fighting an army of mostly elvish archers at day, I'll probably kill the few elvish fighters they have, then use Burners as tanks (I'm using drakes). A dextrous archer hurts (7-4) but he gets hurts back the same, and he has less HP. And right behind those are a good few melee units ready for a nasty counter attack. :D

In the end, the opponent would be unlikely to attack at all. Therefore it really doesn't matter if Burners make a good tank or not (they kinda do because of high HP, but kinda not because of poor defense). Best kind of defense, convincing the enemy not to attack at all. :)

This is, of course, for multiplayer.
offtopic:
I agree, but since a Drake Burner is expensive, you will probably don't have enough Burner to cover your vulnerable melee units, the Elvish Archer cost only 17 plus good defense plus fast will ignore your Burners and sneak in murder your melee units.
I could be wrong though... :hmm:
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Skrim
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Re: Dark Sorcerer tank

Post by Skrim » August 19th, 2010, 10:57 am

hhyloc wrote:
Yoyobuae wrote:If I'm fighting an army of mostly elvish archers at day, I'll probably kill the few elvish fighters they have, then use Burners as tanks (I'm using drakes). A dextrous archer hurts (7-4) but he gets hurts back the same, and he has less HP. And right behind those are a good few melee units ready for a nasty counter attack. :D

In the end, the opponent would be unlikely to attack at all. Therefore it really doesn't matter if Burners make a good tank or not (they kinda do because of high HP, but kinda not because of poor defense). Best kind of defense, convincing the enemy not to attack at all. :)

This is, of course, for multiplayer.
offtopic:
I agree, but since a Drake Burner is expensive, you will probably don't have enough Burner to cover your vulnerable melee units, the Elvish Archer cost only 17 plus good defense plus fast will ignore your Burners and sneak in murder your melee units.
I could be wrong though... :hmm:
That wasn't really the point. The Burner-Archer example was only to describe how deterring an attack is better than tanking the damage dealt by one.

As for what you said, though, well, the Drake Clasher is tough enough to withstand a good bit of fire from Archers, and the Fighter is quick enough to avoid them. Also, the non-Clasher Drakes' pierce weakness only comes into play for 'dextrous' Archers, so it's not that big a problem.

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Re: Dark Sorcerer tank

Post by hhyloc » August 19th, 2010, 12:37 pm

Skrim wrote:
hhyloc wrote:
offtopic:
I agree, but since a Drake Burner is expensive, you will probably don't have enough Burner to cover your vulnerable melee units, the Elvish Archer cost only 17 plus good defense plus fast will ignore your Burners and sneak in murder your melee units.
I could be wrong though... :hmm:
That wasn't really the point. The Burner-Archer example was only to describe how deterring an attack is better than tanking the damage dealt by one.

As for what you said, though, well, the Drake Clasher is tough enough to withstand a good bit of fire from Archers, and the Fighter is quick enough to avoid them. Also, the non-Clasher Drakes' pierce weakness only comes into play for 'dextrous' Archers, so it's not that big a problem.
Ooops...my bad :oops:
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Re: Dark Sorcerer tank

Post by Yoyobuae » August 19th, 2010, 8:34 pm

hhyloc wrote:
Skrim wrote:That wasn't really the point. The Burner-Archer example was only to describe how deterring an attack is better than tanking the damage dealt by one.

As for what you said, though, well, the Drake Clasher is tough enough to withstand a good bit of fire from Archers, and the Fighter is quick enough to avoid them. Also, the non-Clasher Drakes' pierce weakness only comes into play for 'dextrous' Archers, so it's not that big a problem.
Ooops...my bad :oops:
Yeah something like that.

The thing is ranged units get free attacks on melee only ones. Ranged units retaliate well vs other ranged units. Melee units take less retaliation attacking ranged units (except vs adept, which gives no melee retal).

I feel using these advantages is more important in that case.

Similarly. If your opponent goes crazy with mages (a bit unlikely), probably a DS (or DA) will do better than a Bone Shooter (Skel Archer). But against a mostly melee force, perhaps it's better to eliminate impact units early on, then make good use of archers instead.

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