Unit Advanacements

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nukchebi0
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Unit Advanacements

Post by nukchebi0 » August 10th, 2010, 10:16 pm

I have 6 knights and one spearman about to level up, and I was wondering what advancements I choose, in general and specifically for The Rise of Wesnoth. I was thinking splitting the knight equally into Paladins and Grand Knights, and having the spearman become a swordsman, but I'm not sure. I especially don't know for the spearman, seeing as I've never used loyalist units in a campaign before (whereas I've used horseman in HttT).

monochromatic
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Re: Unit Advanacements

Post by monochromatic » August 10th, 2010, 10:32 pm

I usually have a ratio of 2:1 Grand Knights:Paladins, unless there's a lot of undead, which then it's vice versa. I've never played TRoW, so I'm not really sure.
For the spearman, I only get javelineers in MP. Swordsmen level into royal guards, which have 6 as opposed to 5 movement, making a strong quick royal guard quite deadly. Though you might also want to level a quick spearman into pikemen/halberdiers, since to royal guards already get a boost in movement. So it's really the traits for me there.

Joram
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Re: Unit Advanacements

Post by Joram » August 11th, 2010, 2:41 am

I almost always get Swordsmen. Pikemen are really specialties; they are better than swordsmen in a few cases, but I feel that swordsmen are better overall.

As far as horsemen, I go back and forth on it. I really like the extra move that Paladins get. On the other hand, Grand Knights are definitely stouter frontline units. A 1-to-1 mix would be fine, imo. Some people go more one way or the other, but I believe Grand Knights are generally regarded as being more dependable overall (similar to my feelings above about sword/pikemen; one is better in specific circumstances, the other is better overall)

For the Rise of Wesnoth, if you don't have any of the Loyal Heavy Infantry (from the second scenario) or few White Mages, I would recommend going heavier on Paladins, and certainly getting at least 2. Otherwise, it's personnel preference.
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Velensk
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Re: Unit Advanacements

Post by Velensk » August 11th, 2010, 3:04 am

Pikemen are more resistant to enemy archers and thus I consider them a better as a frontline unit in most cases (they retaliate well against enemy non-archers unless they are undead, and the latter concern is migrated somewhat once they hit level 3). I generally make my quick spearmen halabierdiers and my slower ones royal guard for the reasons the second poster mentioned.

In TRoW I'd use more great knights than paladins.
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hhyloc
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Re: Unit Advanacements

Post by hhyloc » August 11th, 2010, 3:15 am

For Grand Knight or Paladin: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... n&start=30

TROW: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... ht+Paladin

About the spearman: I generally prefer pikeman, 10-3 pierce, firststrike make it excellent against horse or Drake. But I still chose Swordsman when fighting Saurian or anything weak to blade. And the Javelineer, he can be useful when be attacked by ranged foes but I think he is too weak compare to other melee lvl2 lack of melee-power :|

Edit: OK I checked, the Javelineer not too weak, but he is not strong either.
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Centric
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Re: Unit Advanacements

Post by Centric » August 11th, 2010, 6:22 am

A 1-to-1 ratio of grand knights and paladins would work quite well. A balance of dependable power and healing. You probably don't need me to tell you about the usefulness of paladins against the undead as well. If you recruit any more horsemen, though, don't forget lancers. They're excellent for hunting down or finishing off.

As to your spearman, it's a tossup. A swordsman's four strikes is no joke, and it has better resistances. Pikemen advance to halberdiers which can deal piercing and blade damage, with firstrike for both, if you're willing to put time into leveling your pikeman. I think javilineers are also excellent units, but also that they're better as a supplementary force. Personally, I'd level it to a swordsman, and advance a pikeman later, and another swordsman after that. If you don't want a javalineer by then, just get a pikeman. I like a 2-to-1 ratio of swordmen to pikemen.

Max
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Re: Unit Advanacements

Post by Max » August 11th, 2010, 8:37 am

halberdiers are quite useful due to their pierce damage and resistance. especially against mounted units. if i don't know what to expect in campaigns i usually try to get a royal guard first (they deal reliable damage with their four strikes, one more mp), followed by a halberdier (with the quick trait, makes quite a difference on many maps), than again a royal guard.

nukchebi0
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Re: Unit Advanacements

Post by nukchebi0 » August 11th, 2010, 9:53 am

Thank you everyone for the responses. I've been playing a bit more and decided on the 1:1 paladin to grand knight leveling. I'm currently at four paladins and three grand knights, with a regular knight halfway to advancement. I ended up going with swordsman for the spearman promotion, and the royal guard does make an excellent damage sink. The attack is nothing spectacular, but consistent and nice for softening units prior to giving lower ranking ones killing blows. I find it kind of funny that you get the ability in TRoW to recruit peasants when you can already recruit their more experienced forms - is there a specific purpose for that later in the campaign (I'm at The Final Spring)?

Also, since the thread is ambiguously titled, should mage advancements be at a 1:1 ratio between red and white? And from the red mage, should it be 1:1 between arch and silver? I find myself tending more towards white mages because I love the Mage of Light night canceling ability, but I do realize that the red mage and superiors have stronger firepower and versatility.

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Maiklas3000
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Re: Unit Advanacements

Post by Maiklas3000 » August 11th, 2010, 10:36 am

The first two mages should almost always be white, IMO. Then maybe a red, then a white for backup. Something like 2.5:1. If the campaign has massive battles where you could use four white mages, then go for four. A pair of Mage of Lights is a self-healing potent fighting force that can do some frontline duty.

[Edit: Oh yeah, Silver vs. Arch Mage... I normally prefer Silver for mobility and strategic options. So maybe the first 2 or 3 as Silver and then an Arch Mage, though of course it depends on the scenarios. So again something like 2.5:1. So I just rarely have an Arch Mage.]

As for Peasants, they are cheap recruits for spam. You can use them to fill in an overstretched line (where you have every other hex with a strong unit, and then you want to prevent the enemy from slipping between these units.) You can use them to run around capturing villages. You can use them as village placeholders, so an enemy can't just walk into a village but must stop to fight. You can have them wait behind the front, swooping in to finish off any almost dead enemy unit that remains. As they require no upkeep, you can buy them when you have gold but insufficient villages/income to support more level 1 troops. Peasants are the Bats and Walking Corpses of the humans.
Last edited by Maiklas3000 on August 11th, 2010, 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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pauxlo
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Re: Unit Advanacements

Post by pauxlo » August 11th, 2010, 10:48 am

nukchebi0 wrote:Also, since the thread is ambiguously titled, should mage advancements be at a 1:1 ratio between red and white? And from the red mage, should it be 1:1 between arch and silver? I find myself tending more towards white mages because I love the Mage of Light night canceling ability, but I do realize that the red mage and superiors have stronger firepower and versatility.
Depends on the campaign.
Of course, you need healers, but there is some limit of how much healers an army can pay :-)

In TRoW you should try to get some silver mages (for teleport), they get really useful in the last scenarios.
In undead-heavy campaigns you'll want more white ones, in campaigns where you have elves too (like HttT) you'll want more red (since you can level shamans with much less XP, and shamans themselves can heal, too).
Mage of Light is useful for caves (or night), if your units are lawful, but level-3 units are often too expensive to use in great numbers.

Grandson_of_Sam
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Re: Unit Advanacements

Post by Grandson_of_Sam » August 11th, 2010, 11:12 am

First of all, a disclaimer: I haven't played all of the campaigns through yet, and play mostly on easy (a personal preference, as I like to play the scenario's through on my first attempt. The second playthrough I play on medium. Actually some campaigns are harder on easy as you level a lot slower due to less and lower level enemies).

From the 2 (or 3 if you count the suicide bomber Lancer) Horseman advances I tend to get Paladins, as they do well enough on general, and really shine against undead. Ofcourse if I DO get a Grand Knight, I really love how they kill most enemies with one attack in the open. I think the choice is really a personal taste of how you play. I tend to level units that I can use in every scenario (or atleast most of them) in the campaign, so Paladin is my number one choice. :) The only case I level my Horsemen into Lancers is when they get the Intelligent trait, as they don't need that much exp for the bang (and as they die way too easily the exp is wasted on them), and nothing is as annoying as to have an intelligent level 3 or 4 unit when you have plenty of them anyway (I rarely level an intelligent unit over level 2, and use them only to babysit my REAL units)... ;)

I have found the Royal Guard the best overall tank of the factions I have played, as it does good damage, takes a lot of damage to kill and moves fast enough on any surface. Halberdiers are good on certain scenario's, on some a lot better than Guards, but you have to know in advance what to expect to use them really. One other favorite is the Thug-line, as it does impact damage, hits hard and has a lot of HP. Iron Maulers would be nice if they actually would reach the enemy before the scenario ends... :) As for the Javelineer, in the campaigns where you can get them, you always get also bowmen (or better, Elven archers), so I haven't found them that useful as the line is a dead end like Lancer. It just feels stupid to give exp for a unit that is already max level anyway.

For the Mages I usually go with 1:1 with White and Red, and level the Red to a Silver as fast as possible. A few Silver Mages gives you a lot of versatility if you divide your army to two or even three parts, as you can use the same mages to back up all of them where needed. There is actually one scenario in EI where you really should have two or three of them, as you start the scenario with your army divided. Mage of Light is very nice, but the exp needed to level one is as much as two normal units, so I rarely have them. The Illumination is priceless though when I do level one. :) On some campaigns though you have also (or mostly in the case of Liberty) chaotic units, so leveling your white Mage is actually a bad thing (depending on your strategy ofcourse). As for Shyde vs White mage as a healer, I would go for the Shyde in most cases, as it's a flying unit, so you can keep up with your mounted units with it (the Paladin's +4 heal is nice, but nothing to rely on, and it doesn't cure). It also has Slow, which is almost overpowered against some bosses and mages (and seems to be countered very weirdly if the target has 2 ranged attacks).


All in all, I try to build a core army which I try to use in every scenario through the campaign, and after the core is finished, I get some more specialized units, like for example against undead or high defence units.

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hhyloc
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Re: Unit Advanacements

Post by hhyloc » August 11th, 2010, 11:51 am

As for the mage, I almost go 2 : 1 ratio (2 White 1 Red) for every campaign, although the Red Mage get better level up (he goes to lvl 4) and better damage overall but I found the White one more useful, heal+8, cure, kick-ass when fighting undead and arcane vulnerable foes, really useful against anything chaotic when become Mage of Light, of course I DO get Red Mage when in need of fire/raw damage though...
When come down to chosing between Arch Mage and Silver Mage, I mostly often Arch Mage - good damage, higher HP, level to Great Mage. But in campaign, when face many magic-users, I vote for Silver Mage, fast, teleport, good resistance to fire/cold (can be used as magic-tank), I use Silver Mage when fighting Necromancer/Lich/Ancient Lich (50% resistance against cold) with Mage of Light support.
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HomerJ
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Re: Unit Advanacements

Post by HomerJ » August 11th, 2010, 1:08 pm

My pikeman in TRoW usually only fight drakes and saurians.


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monochromatic
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Re: Unit Advanacements

Post by monochromatic » August 11th, 2010, 1:30 pm

Hm. Yes, WM are very useful, it's good to have a couple. But I find RM much more valuable for dealing damage simply because they are neutral instead of lawful. They have more hp as well. I don't really have a ratio, but unless I'm facing a lot of undead (like EI) I usually advance in this order: WM / RM / WM / RM / RM / WM / RM / RM / RM / WM / RM and so on.

Between AM and SM, I always do SM / AM / SM / AM / AM / AM / AM / SM / AM / and no more SM. I find the teleport ability useful, but in the end the hp of the GM really help. I usually don't need more than 2-3 teleporting assassins.

HomerJ
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Re: Unit Advanacements

Post by HomerJ » August 11th, 2010, 2:28 pm

elvish_sovereign wrote: They have more hp as well. I don't really have a ratio, but unless I'm facing a lot of undead (like EI) I usually advance in this order: WM / RM / WM / RM / RM / WM / RM / RM / RM / WM / RM and so on.

Between AM and SM, I always do SM / AM / SM / AM / AM / AM / AM / SM / AM / and no more SM. I find the teleport ability useful, but in the end the hp of the GM really help. I usually don't need more than 2-3 teleporting assassins.
Just out of curiosity, do you have a list besides your keyboard to keep track of your mages... ?

One thing to keep in mind for TRoW is that you have (potentially) access to chaotic units which would rather like to see a white mage instead of a MoL. So keeping some wm (preferably the not intelligent ones) at lvl 2 is an option.


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