How to play - Undeads vs Knalgans - Huumy

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Huumy
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How to play - Undeads vs Knalgans - Huumy

Post by Huumy »

Undead vs Knalgans

First of all: It was difficult to start this part of the guide because there is lot of ways to play this matchup and I feel like this is my worst matchup atm (when playing with undeads or Knalgans).

Almost all knalgan units can be effective vs undead units. When playing vs knalgans theres usually lots of different units you need to be aware, which usually means you also should have lots different units. Your role is to scout what units your opponent has and make slight changes in your own unit mix. Whenever you are playing vs Knalgans be on good terrain, and more important keep knalgans out of good terrain.

Units you will be using:
----> Skeletons: These are the core of your army. They are vulnerable to footpads and dwarven fighters but they still take some beating. Good vs ulfs.
----> Dark Adepts: Good for killing dwarves on good terrain. Look out for sneaky gryphons.
----> Bats: Always have 1 around, they are good for killing injured ulfs and finishing other dwarves on bad terrain.
----> Walking corpses: Have one of these around. Best for finishing units at low defense. (Zombie dwarves have more HP and better resistances than normal zombies.)
----> Ghoul: Have one of these. Good for holding ground.
----> Ghost: Very costly. Recruit maximum 1 in early game. Don't let any thieves backstab your ghosts.

Basic flow of the game:
At the first night try keep all your villages save. Recruit more skeletons and WCs mix in 1-3 adepts, few ghosts/ghouls. After you can keep your villages and most of your units alive start getting more adepts. Soon you can start pushing at night and retreat at day.

When attacking:
----> Attack at night.
----> Avoid risky attacks. Don't expect many of your attacks hit knalgan army that's on good terrain, attack so that you take minimum damage back and use adepts to kill the key units.
----> Use ghost to finish units or hold important hexes.

When retreating:
----> Don't let your opponent level a dwarven fighter.
----> Keep your ghosts, ghouls and skeletons at frontline.
----> Kill ulfs with skeletons.
----> If your opponent has mainly footpads, you can retreat to nearest good terrain and hold your ground, otherwise don't let the knalgan army near you during dawn or morning.


Leveling units:
1.Dark adept: Level 2 adept is always good vs pesky knalgans.
2.Ghost: They can't touch this.
3.Rest of your units.
What units you dont want your opponent to level.
1.Dwarven fighter: A lot more HP and damage.
2.Footpad: A lot more HP and damage.
3.Thief: Skirimish.
4.Rest of his units.


Any comments are welcome. Can't promise I will make the changes you want me to make but I'll read every post and think real hard about them. Thanks in advance.

I edited the "flow of the game". Now it's more short and more general.
Last edited by Huumy on July 11th, 2010, 7:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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5dPZ
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Re: How to play - Undeads vs Knalgans - Huumy

Post by 5dPZ »

First, don't play undead in this matchup anytime you can - it is frustrating and slim chance to win. If you are the "Knalgans" side, or the faction of foodpads, you can smile and keep the game going if your oppornent has no idea what is going to happen to him (however, this is off-topic as this is Undead vs Knalgans thread).

However, if you decide to stay like an undying man, then here are some comments:

Things to spam:
Skeleton: hold off pads and easily kill ulf. Try keep the ZOC around it so that maximum 3 pads could attack, not more.
Adept: this could kill pads for 4 out of 6 turns for a cycle of day. Never expose this to ulf - cover with skeletons.
WC: place holder, go skeleton-wc-skeleton-wc-skeleton formation, so that enemy pad could not sneak in between your skeletons and get an extra attacking hex - it is almost always a waste of his attacks on your wc as damage/hex is very important for pads in this match up.

Things to have:
Ghoul: poison pads and cripple ulf for many turns. However, it is a trade of gold for time - usually not worth it.
Ghost: defense vs pads and kills ulf during night. However, it is expensive and it dies to ulf at day time.
Bat: place holder and village stealer, another 0 keep, worse than WC due to its price.

Things to avoid, unless:
Skeletal archer: weak to pads and ulf, try avoid this.

If Knalgans start to buy dwarves over pads - lucky for you that he just gave up an easy game; in that case just play attack-at-night and defend-at-day and you will be fine.

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ParadiseCity
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Re: How to play - Undeads vs Knalgans - Huumy

Post by ParadiseCity »

Added to the How to Play Index.

And while I agree that this match-up is poorly balanced at the moment, I would still suggest more ghosts. If you are planning on defending against mass footie - or against really any knalgan attack - ghosts are invaluable. They can can retreat easy, and hold villages better than skeles in some cases.

EDIT: Now it's actually there.
Last edited by ParadiseCity on July 7th, 2010, 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Huumy
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Re: How to play - Undeads vs Knalgans - Huumy

Post by Huumy »

And while I agree that this match-up is poorly balanced at the moment, I would still suggest more ghosts. If you are planning on defending against mass footie - or against really any knalgan attack - ghosts are invaluable. They can can retreat easy, and hold villages better than skeles in some cases.
I think ghosts to hold villages are great, but they can be overruned in early game with a thief + anything. Because it is usually the case that Ud has less units and Knalgans have mass of footpads + something else.
Maybe if you get a ghost in early game you also need few WCs to have enough units to fight knalgans?
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Dunno
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Re: How to play - Undeads vs Knalgans - Huumy

Post by Dunno »

I must say it again, your how to play threads are very good and informative. Keep up the good work! :)
Oh, I'm sorry, did I break your concentration?

Huumy
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Re: How to play - Undeads vs Knalgans - Huumy

Post by Huumy »

I must say it again, your how to play threads are very good and informative. Keep up the good work! :)
Thank you. 8)
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cretin
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Re: How to play - Undeads vs Knalgans - Huumy

Post by cretin »

hmm, I would think that DA's would be the core of your army, since Knalgen units have rather high defense, with other units covering them. Skeletons seem not to be the best choice, since footpads and fighters both use impact. But ghouls would be very useful, since dwarves that are somewhat slow and all and lack cure. Or am I completely wrong in this way of thinking?

Huumy
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Re: How to play - Undeads vs Knalgans - Huumy

Post by Huumy »

hmm, I would think that DA's would be the core of your army, since Knalgen units have rather high defense, with other units covering them. Skeletons seem not to be the best choice, since footpads and fighters both use impact. But ghouls would be very useful, since dwarves that are somewhat slow and all and lack cure. Or am I completely wrong in this way of thinking?
I myself mainly try go more heavier on the skeletons and WCs in early game and start adding more adepts the longer the games goes on. That is because Knalgans are hard to stop at early game, so you just need to keep your villages ofcourse 1-3 adepts is needed in early game to kill their units (if they go heavy on ulfs or gryphons no point recruiting many adepts at first night). Once you can keep your villages you can start getting army that can do more damage.

Edited the basic flow of the game. Hopefully it makes more sense now.
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Maiklas3000
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Re: How to play - Undeads vs Knalgans - Huumy

Post by Maiklas3000 »

I'm a campaign player. I just gone "done" playing Descent Into Darkness: Endless Night, this time versus the Dwarves. The setting is a cave, so eternal night. It was a battle of attrition, but with the enemy normally having an income advantage, so it was a long bloody road to victory. The dwarven leader recruits no Footpads. He starts out with a wave of Gryphons, then recruits mostly Steelclads and Thunderguards. Like this thread says, Dark Adepts are quite effective (especially when backed up by a level 4 lich!) However, unlike this thread says, I found Ghosts cost effective, though again, this is against the AI. Ghosts leveled into Wraiths can do decent ranged damage, while the AI-controlled Dwarves don't seem interested in fighting back, unless they can get two Steelclads on one Wraith. Walking Corpses and Bats are ineffective against even heavily wounded Gryphons and Steelclads, though you might have a use for one of each. Ghouls are questionable, as they tend to be critically wounded after attacking, and thus not survive past the next turn, but if you're lacking offensive power, then poison with a Ghoul and run. Skeletons are nice against Thunderguards, but also tend to have a short life expectancy. So, DA's and Wraiths (or Ghosts) supplemented by one or two Skeletons and perhaps a Ghoul will suffice vs. the AI that recruits just Dwarves and Gryphons.

Yoyobuae
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Re: How to play - Undeads vs Knalgans - Huumy

Post by Yoyobuae »

Campaigns vs AI are very, very different from playing vs a human player. These kind of threads are targetted at multiplayer vs another human player, which will recruit footpads/thieves/etc.

Maybe one day when AI's recruiting is improved, it will also recruit appropiately.

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Maiklas3000
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Re: How to play - Undeads vs Knalgans - Huumy

Post by Maiklas3000 »

Yeah, I know.

I just played a later "level" of Descent Into Darkness: Endless Night, and there the AI recruited Trappers, Outlaws, Bandits, and Footpads. That spelled my doom. They strained my lines by sending two units to flank, and then broke my lines, sending through Footpads to dispatch my wounded troops and to cut off my level 4 Lich/leader from his home base. The lesson I learned is that it's important to recruit enough units with ZOC control to contain breakthroughs.

Huumy
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Re: How to play - Undeads vs Knalgans - Huumy

Post by Huumy »

I think one big advantages of ghost is that they require small amount of xp to level and the level 2 ghost is well worth 20gp. That's why vs AI ghosts are much better cause it's more easy to level up them.
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