Help on a replay

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BrTarolg
Posts: 19
Joined: March 18th, 2008, 7:15 pm

Help on a replay

Post by BrTarolg » June 26th, 2010, 12:41 pm

This is a friendly drakes vs knalgans gam i played vs some random guy today

Ill admit, i wasnt playing at my best, i made a few obvious tactical errors (like throwing away my fighter at the start because i thought for some reason that would be free damage)

However other than that, the game progressively got worse and worse for me.
Ofc, when youre losing you feel extremely unlucky, many times i felt i was just getting really unlucky with a lot of my CTK, and it just built up through the game

It also felt like iwas kinda getting outmaneouvered which is really annoying

How much did luck play factor in this game? I think i had a descisive disadvantage once he pushed into my top right position so anything after that i dont feel is too important
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Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3988
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Help on a replay

Post by Velensk » June 26th, 2010, 1:58 pm

Turn 1: No comment

Turn 2: No comment

Turn 3: Foregoing a village to pressure early under these conditions seems unlikely to be worth it.

Turn 4: No comment

Turn 5: No comment

Turn 6: If you’re planning on mounting an attack on the right at day I think you would find it advisable to invest in a burner.

Turn 7: No comment

Turn 8: You are pushing deep which could make your retreat difficult.

Turn 9: Not sure what you thought you were doing with either of your attacks this turn unless you decided against further attacks on the right due to the auger missing. If you weren’t going to go for taking the guardsman out entirely then it would have been better to not attack him at all.

Turn 10: A better defense than holding the terrain would have been to just get out of reach. Right now he may be on poor terrain however the thing is that if you stick around to take advantage of it he’ll tear you apart due to night.

Turn 11: That was a nasty bit of bad luck there however he was still backing himself up with the same threat as last time so he was not risking as much as it seemed. His risk paid off for him this time.

Turn 12: I don’t think you needed to pull back that turn. He did have the power to push you off your villages however then he’d be in your reach as day was coming. As it is you’ll undoubtably get some kills however it’ll be a pain to chase those dwarves out of your strongholds which will give him time to take the initiative elsewhere. Under these conditions I’d be very cautious about leaving the left flank as wide open as you have as you’ll undoubtably want to concentrate your forces on the right.

Turn 13: Seems it worked out for you pretty nicely though, your luck counterbalanced. That saurian on the left isn’t going to be able to hold the village while he’s that wounded as such it would have been a good idea to ensure that some other troops get over to the left ASAP.

Turn 14: No comment

Turn 15: No comment

Turn 16: You got quite lucky on your attack on the right and it still went poorly for you probably due to you forgetting about blues leader.

Turn 17: In this case I probably would have picked the slasher for higher piercing resistance and damage. Very risky going after the thief as if it failed you could well be left without any units on that side.

Turn 18: No comment

Turn 19: That last bit of poor luck turned a bad situation into a game ending one.

Turn 20: That was pressing deep without covering your flank or rear. Naturally you were flanked. I don’t know if you could have turned an advantage if you’d stayed back but it will certainly be hard to do so now.

Turn 21: No comment

Turn 22: Game is practically over at this point.

Overall: I felt that your opponent was not too much more lucky than you were however he did play better. Remember in this match critical mass is in your favor so there is no need to rush your attack just to keep your opponent back. The other thing I'd advice you to keep in mind is how open you leave your flanks.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

BrTarolg
Posts: 19
Joined: March 18th, 2008, 7:15 pm

Re: Help on a replay

Post by BrTarolg » June 26th, 2010, 3:02 pm

Thanks so much for the replies!

I think if i had invested in a burner i would have been able to kill the guardsman and secure a pretty strong lead that game

Everything after turn 13 seemed kinda moot though - bad tactical errors definately built up (holding ground instead of retreating, losing fighter in middle, and being too greedy with saurians on left) probably lost me the game from there

---

One big question igot - when you say critical mass leads to my favour- how is this so?

Personally i feel as critical mass is reached then i get less room around the map to maneouvre drakes which are the biggest advantage here

Also do you agree with a clasher/fighter mix or should be going heavier on one side or not?

Lastly do you have any comments about my oppoents play - where did he make mistakes in his game?

Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3988
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Help on a replay

Post by Velensk » June 26th, 2010, 10:48 pm

I can't comment on your enemies mistakes at the moment I don't remember the game that well but as to explain what I mean about critical mass.

Consider what room to maneuver means. It means the potential to flank, the ability to shift fronts quickly, more ability to retreat/chase and so forth. After critical mass, neither side is going to flanking very much at all regardless of how fast they move, the ability to shift fronts becomes less useful, ability to retreat/chase is still there though and this stage in the game brings out the other major advantage drakes have. More power per hex and better special abilities for such a situation.

No matter what time of day it is, two knalgan units (sans ulfserker but that isn't a huge deal) cannot kill a clasher (or most burners) in a single turn. Guardsmen with the correct traits can say the same thing however getting too many guardsmen will lower the damage potential of your foes army significantly. If the main body of their force is guardsmen/thunderers you will still be able to run away and chase more effectively thus forcing fights at day. If they have a large number of griffons you have more fighting power per cost and you should have enough augers to keep them warded at night (at least until the slower dwarves show up). If you are using a force heavy on clashers/burners you will probably have better upkeep, and finally you have the saurians abilities. Healing is an immensely useful critical mass ability because in huge battles villages for healing and front line hexes are in highly limited supply. Augers can support your offense without being on the front line and make it so that you can heal your entire army at the same time instead of being limited to villages. Saurians are usefull because with them any crack in the enemy line becomes another hex you can attack from (though since you'll probably be fighting at day this will frequently be unadvisable). All these effects go a long way to making attrition favor you.

The two units you do have to watch out for at this point are griffons and ulfserkers but ulfserkers generally are not great vs drakes (they cannot even defeat a burner at day) and griffons are fragile so your enemy has to be carefull with them.

I may be wrong but I seem to recall that in a recent thread in the user forums looking for racial match-up statistics on various maps if you follow a link to the thread where the statistics were collected it was discovered that almost every match-up that goes beyond a certain turn number for this match would end in a Knalgan victory. I don't have time to check at the moment but when I come back to talk about your opponents play I will try to post a link to the stats thread.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

BrTarolg
Posts: 19
Joined: March 18th, 2008, 7:15 pm

Re: Help on a replay

Post by BrTarolg » June 27th, 2010, 9:01 am

Since fighters have the potential to be 2 shotted (by 2 thunderers) would it be correct of me to, as the game goes on, recruit more clashers as opposed to fighters?

"

I may be wrong but I seem to recall that in a recent thread in the user forums looking for racial match-up statistics on various maps if you follow a link to the thread where the statistics were collected it was discovered that almost every match-up that goes beyond a certain turn number for this match would end in a Knalgan victory. I don't have time to check at the moment but when I come back to talk about your opponents play I will try to post a link to the stats thread."

This is kind of interesting and contradicts what you said earlier? I'm not so sure myself really, most my games dont las tthat long either haha

BrTarolg
Posts: 19
Joined: March 18th, 2008, 7:15 pm

Re: Help on a replay

Post by BrTarolg » June 27th, 2010, 9:28 am

edit: brainfart, dw about this replay lol, more interested int he vs dwarfs one
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Last edited by BrTarolg on June 27th, 2010, 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Huumy
Posts: 292
Joined: October 15th, 2009, 9:52 pm

Re: Help on a replay

Post by Huumy » June 27th, 2010, 11:58 am

Hello I'll say this short and clear.

First of all your general use of units wasn't too good but it wasn't too bad either.

The biggest reason why you lost is:
Your recruits.
First of all even if you know what race he is recruit 1 scout (fast unit) in beginning, it helps you to see where your opponent army is.

It was drakes vs Northeners.
What you recruited in this game?
Lots of clashers and saurians. They are not very useful in high numbers vs northeners.

I would say that try playing this matchup again with some1. This time:
1. recruit lot of fighters. (Yes most of your army should be fighters)
2. recruit only 1 or 2 clashers, they are useful to have around anyway.
3. recruit only 1 saurian
4. recruit 1-3 burners
5. Attack at day, retreat at night.

Plz if you tried this, send a replay.
"And the girl that you want is directly out in front, And she’s waving her caboose at you, You sneeze achoo, She calls you out and boom!"
The offspring, trolling you since forever.

Yoyobuae
Posts: 408
Joined: July 24th, 2009, 8:38 pm

Re: Help on a replay

Post by Yoyobuae » June 27th, 2010, 12:23 pm

Yeah, saurians suffer too much against grunt blade attacks. I guess that's one major pitfall for drake players, to recruit augurs far more frequently than burners. I know I probably make that mistake too.

Anyway, I've tried to figure out what went wrong with BrTarolg's offensive on the right. Going for the troll kill was fine. Attacking the grunt at the village was not. Your clasher got hurt badly with the retaliation, then got attacked by archer and poisoned (without an augur nearby to stop poison), and later he attacked a grunt again (taking retaliation again). Also you left both augurs completely exposed to the grunts (and leader).

Instead, it may have been better to use the clasher to extend the ZoC wall and keep the saurians protected. I've re-played that turn with the changes, and it's very difficult for the northerners to make any effective counter attack (see attached Save game).
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BrTarolg
Posts: 19
Joined: March 18th, 2008, 7:15 pm

Re: Help on a replay

Post by BrTarolg » June 27th, 2010, 9:47 pm

Huumy wrote:Hello I'll say this short and clear.

First of all your general use of units wasn't too good but it wasn't too bad either.

The biggest reason why you lost is:
Your recruits.
First of all even if you know what race he is recruit 1 scout (fast unit) in beginning, it helps you to see where your opponent army is.

It was drakes vs Northeners.
What you recruited in this game?
Lots of clashers and saurians. They are not very useful in high numbers vs northeners.

I would say that try playing this matchup again with some1. This time:
1. recruit lot of fighters. (Yes most of your army should be fighters)
2. recruit only 1 or 2 clashers, they are useful to have around anyway.
3. recruit only 1 saurian
4. recruit 1-3 burners
5. Attack at day, retreat at night.

Plz if you tried this, send a replay.
You are absolutely 100% correct

I knew this already, i have no idea why i farted for the whole game and a couple of hours after that not remembering the basic rules of vs northerners

Ok i don't really need any more comments vs northies, more on the knalgans replay would be nice

I don't believe i was so stupid lol

Huumy
Posts: 292
Joined: October 15th, 2009, 9:52 pm

Re: Help on a replay

Post by Huumy » June 28th, 2010, 9:44 am

To the drake Knalgan replay: I'm watching it atm. (btw you are playing player who has rating 1870 in ladder)
At the start of your turn 14 you are in good lead. So far you have played really good overall with drakes. Only thing that was plain bad I think was lack of burner(s) in your first attack. Moving badly injured saurian to the village near his troops not good. It was basicly free xp to him.

At turn 15 you split your army in 3 different small groups. I think you should just use the drake mobility to your advance by grouping your whole army (use 2 or 3 units + leader to defend villages in right side) and moving them to the left side (where he was attacking) crush the army there and advance into his villages. At this turn 70% of your army is not doing anything (not fighting or posing any threat to your opponent units). He can also defend the right side easily if you decide to attack, with his leader and recruits that get there in one turn.

At start of turn 17: Your attack in right failed due to his leader using (surprise, surprise). In left side you are also overrun.
So I will stop watching the replay. It's prolly just losing game after this.

The biggest reason you lost to me seems to be that you splitted up your army and used small group to attack right side where his leader was. Instead grouping up and slaughtering the slow dwarves in the left side.

In short:
At start of the game nothing happened, both played passive. The first attack by you was succesful (still one burner would been nice) At turn 14 you looked great, you had all your units in 1 group at right side, when he started slowly advancing from left side. Then you simply positioned your army bad, attacking him in smaller numbers both sides and lost your lead.
"And the girl that you want is directly out in front, And she’s waving her caboose at you, You sneeze achoo, She calls you out and boom!"
The offspring, trolling you since forever.

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