need help with LoW Costly Revenge

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tr0ll
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Re: need help with LoW Costly Revenge

Post by tr0ll » September 5th, 2010, 9:38 pm

good thing troops dont desert or revolt when you cant pay them :P
i barely finished this one in 1.8.4 on Medium with 307 starting gold, using Maiklas3000's advice. there isnt all that much healing going on in the backfield if you dont have many units. replay attached.
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sur.nhm
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Re: need help with LoW Costly Revenge

Post by sur.nhm » September 19th, 2010, 2:16 pm

Personally, I'm also stuck in this level,
a real spoiler:
I'm not really around any more, but you can find me in TvTropes.

majkl
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Re: need help with LoW Costly Revenge

Post by majkl » June 3rd, 2011, 1:55 pm

puuuf, i playing hard 1.8.6 with just 220 gold on start , and its imposible to do it. I will never play again braking the siege(one before this) because it take me like a 15 hours of playing it do done it(in the last turn! so money from there isnt way out)... i played last 3-4 maps with minimum gold , but i just cant beat this...daunting... anyone maybe give me last turn save please or solution x)

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Crendgrim
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Re: need help with LoW Costly Revenge

Post by Crendgrim » June 3rd, 2011, 3:04 pm

majkl:
Look at these feedback posts by Maiklas3000 (someone who beat nearly all mainline campaigns on hardest difficulty) and the following ones which are played on "hard": http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 50#p440450
Maybe they'll help you.


Crend
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majkl
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Re:

Post by majkl » June 4th, 2011, 5:46 pm

Crendgrim: thanks for response , i read everything , even maiklas3000 , and it seems he had to restart the scenario or restart somewhere before human allience ,because win breaking the siege with more then 500 gold at the end when starts with just 100 gold is unbelievable ..for me

WanderingHero
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Re: need help with LoW Costly Revenge

Post by WanderingHero » June 5th, 2011, 9:18 am

monochromatic wrote:
Off-topic, well only slightly:
Ditto, LOW is harder than Descent into Darkness, Liberty and Delfadoor's Memoir's COMBINED

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Maiklas3000
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Re: Re:

Post by Maiklas3000 » June 7th, 2011, 5:14 pm

majkl wrote:Crendgrim: thanks for response , i read everything , even maiklas3000 , and it seems he had to restart the scenario or restart somewhere before human allience ,because win breaking the siege with more then 500 gold at the end when starts with just 100 gold is unbelievable ..for me
From an old thread:
HomerJ wrote:
Maiklas3000 wrote:Starting with 100 gold (after ending with -970 gold after the Human Alliance), I sailed through Breaking the Siege on hard on the first attempt, with no casualties and leveling a rider to outrider, ending with 510 gold. I think I have all the loyal guys except the scout. I started with Marshall Anduilas, Champion Arkildur, Sharpshooter Tameril-Esmeril, and of course Dwarf Lord Olurf, Shyde Cleodil, and High Lord Kalenz. I have no sylphs or outriders, but I do have a stockpile of fast, resilient battle-shydes. I recruited 4 shydes and a (level 2) rider. I sent 3 shydes up the east side, a shyde and the rider up the middle, and all the loyal guys (including Cleodil) to the west. I was a bit sloppy in letting Landar get critically injured, but I wasn't really expecting to win on the first attempt...
Replay or did not happen.

Greetz
HomerJ
I attached the replay in this post:
http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 82#p440482

Also see kukn's post above where he redid Breaking the Siege and wound up with 516 gold. In his scenario review for The Chief Must Die, he said he went into Breaking the Siege with 100 gold. That was on hard.

Now, when you said I had to restart the scenario Costly Revenge, well sure, I did not win the first time or the second time or the third time. I restarted from start after each loss, not doing save-reloads, and eventually I came up with a winning approach.

Costly Revenge is a nightmare, no matter how you look at it. I think you need more gold.

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tr0ll
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Re: need help with LoW Costly Revenge

Post by tr0ll » June 8th, 2011, 1:53 am

Crendgrim wrote: ... Maiklas3000 (someone who beat nearly all mainline campaigns on hardest difficulty)
Crend
what do you mean "nearly"? if there is one he can't beat, maybe it isnt possible...

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Maiklas3000
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Re: need help with LoW Costly Revenge

Post by Maiklas3000 » June 8th, 2011, 10:34 am

I just haven't gotten all the way through all the mainline campaigns. On my hardest difficulty challenge with no save-loading, the last two for me are HttT and UtBS. I'm part way through HttT (now on scenario 11 out of 25) and not stuck but too busy.

majkl
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Re: need help with LoW Costly Revenge

Post by majkl » June 10th, 2011, 9:58 pm

Maiklas3000: sorry for missunderstandig, i meant i have respect thous that they won with 500+ gold =P , and now i understand that my problem is in recall list
have with Cleodil just 2 shydes, no riders/outriders or sylfs,.. I think , have more then 3 fast lvl 3s is a must

kriskrosed
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Re: need help with LoW Costly Revenge

Post by kriskrosed » January 10th, 2012, 1:19 pm

I'm not sure if folks still have trouble with this scenario, but here's a strategy you might try if you're low on cash. It accomplishes a few things. First, it puts you in a supremely defensible position where a small army is just as effective as a large army. Second, remember how pissed you were when you found out your units destroyed villages rather than use them to heal? Well, with this strategy, that's now an advantage for you. Finally, it flips the tables on mobility. Hate how the saurians always run circles around you? With this strategy, you run circles around them. Even with limited funds, this scenario can be tilted in your favor.

To make it work, you need to take advantage of the only place on the map where you can be stronger than your opponent: the northwest forest. You have five turns before the saurians arrive. Your objective is to get north as soon as you can, but on the first turn, send two Avengers south to hide in the forests. Also, send a rider east and then to the group of five villages at the extreme north of the map. Their jobs will eventually be to destroy villages. It might feel painful to split units off of your main body with so many saurians bearing down on you, but trust me, it's well worth it. Recruit the rest of your army, vacate your keep, and head north. You want mostly Heroes/Champions and Rangers/Avengers, but a Sharpshooter or two will be useful. Any more than two is a bit of a waste since you have Kalenz. By turn five, the saurians will reach you so set up your battle line as quick as you can. Pretty soon, they'll be walking gleefully into the teeth of your defense while leaving their villages completely undefended.

Put the hammer down on any saurians foolish enough to stand on the ice. With your Avengers and rider, lay waste to their empty villages. Eventually, you'll be winning with emphasis. All with limited funds. I beat it quite easily on medium while limiting myself to only 10 recalls. If my math is right, that takes about 210 gold. On hard, I went in with 303g. I spent it on 13 recalls and won without too much difficulty. In retrospect, I might have been able to get away with only 12 recalls since I hardly used one of my avengers. Maybe. He did come in handy late in the scenario so I'd have to play it again to be sure.

Here's why it works so well:
  • First and foremost, the northwest forest requires a battle line of only 4 hexes to defend. Let me say that again because it's the most important. Your battle line only has to stretch for 4 hexes. That's less than half the length of the battle line you need to defend the area around your keep, and, if you're low on cash, the shorter your battle line the better. Here's a visual:
    Image:
    The fourth spot is a little ambiguous because the AI is inconsistent about how many units it sends up that way. One unit is often enough to hold the position although you want another unit or two in reserve in case it gets nasty.
  • In the northwest forest, you have the edge in mobility. The tiles in and around the northwest forest are all frozen. This is huge. Your fighters have twice the mobility and your archers three times the mobility of the saurians on ice. Three times the mobility! Do you hate how the saurians always manage to attack your weakest point? It will not happen in the northwest forest because the saurians can only move one hex per turn. That means you get to dictate who fights whom and where it happens. When every unit is precious, this is exactly what you need. This is harder to achieve in the area around your keep. Down there, the saurians can travel up and down your line on swamp and road hexes to attack you wherever they please.
  • The northwest forest is surrounded by bare ice except for two tiles. That means you get to sit at 70% or 60% defense while the saurians sit at 30%. That's just obscene, and the saurians don't even care. They will happily sit on ice tiles while you pound them into oblivion. The two tiles you have to worry about are a frozen forest tile and a swamp tile. Use Kalenz and/or a couple of sharpshooters to manage them. Or just ignore them. Honestly, enough saurians will plop themselves down on ice tiles that you don't need to worry about it too much.
    Image:
    The red A and blue line go together. It's an alternate battle line that I've never tried, but it might be useful to consider. You still wind up only defending against two poor tiles, but you now have four units exposed rather than three. That might help you burn down the saurians faster or it might allow the saurians to burn you down faster. Maybe both, I don't know. Like I said, I've never tried it.
  • Finally, the northwest forest is as far away from the villages as you can get. That means you can take advantage of one of the coolest units in the game: the Elven Avenger. Remember the two you sent south to hide in the forests? The entire saurian army will commit to your forces in the northwest forest, leaving all the blue villages completely undefended. When they're out of range, use your Avengers to destroy the villages. The AI might rush some units back to try and engage your Avengers, but you can just hide back in the forest. When the saurians are out of range again, destroy more villages. Without the income, the AI will soon be so deep in negative funds that you won't have to worry about reinforcements the rest of the scenario. Notice, if the scenario did not allow you to destroy the villages, you wouldn't be able to stifle the saurians' economy. They would just take the villages back and use the cash to keep funneling reinforcements your way. So that no-village disadvantage you thought you had? It's now an advantage. How good does that feel?
You do have to keep one thing in mind with this strategy. Despite the defensive philosophy, there comes a point where you need to get proactive in your kills. A shorter battle line means less damage dealt per turn and on hard that becomes an issue.

I've attached the replay of my win on hard. I won on turn 23 even with a few mistakes. I should've pushed out from the forest a turn or two earlier. I also could've pushed my southern Avengers up into the green villages earlier to stop that last reinforcement that squeaked in. Still, it's a pretty good example of the strategy. Oh, and before you ask, I didn't cheat. There was no reloading for better results. That last turn that looks too good to be true was some legitimate luck.
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Kymille
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Re: need help with LoW Costly Revenge

Post by Kymille » January 11th, 2012, 4:16 am

kriskrosed, that worked great!

kriskrosed
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Re: need help with LoW Costly Revenge

Post by kriskrosed » January 12th, 2012, 12:18 am

Glad to hear it. Pretty fun to overcome such ridiculous odds. LoW has a few of those which is why it's one of my favorite campaigns.

vicente
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Re: need help with LoW Costly Revenge

Post by vicente » January 15th, 2012, 5:31 pm

kriskrosed, unfortunately, the scenario is much hard after 1.9.12. The elves will have to spend 2 MP over every frozen forest, so their mobility is greatly reduced. I came into the scenario with over 600 gold on hard, and beat it without trouble. It would be much harder with the minimum gold, especially when there are a lot of Oracles on the enemy side.

kriskrosed
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Re: need help with LoW Costly Revenge

Post by kriskrosed » January 17th, 2012, 5:35 pm

vicente, I'm confused. The elves have to spend 2 mp per frozen forest hex in 1.8 as well. The point is that saurians have to spend 4 mp. Since 6/2 is 3 and 7/4 is truncated to 1 in computer math, the elves have a 3:1 advantage optimally. That could vary with traits and such, but at worst elves have equal mobility, on average twice, and at best three times the mobility. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't believe that's been changed.

Is there some other change that's made the scenario harder? I've never noticed anything in the changelog about Costly Revenge specifically nor have I noticed any fundamental changes to the elves or saurians. That's why I felt posting a replay from version 1.8 was sufficient. I guess I should've played through on 1.9.10 or greater, but, honestly, since Costly Revenge is so far into the campaign and since I haven't noticed any changes to it, I haven't really wanted to take the time.

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