How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
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How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
Hi everyone, I'm nelson and I'm currently ranked #39 on the ladder. This means that there are lots of people who are better at Wesnoth than me, but many more people who currently need improvement in order to defeat me. I'd like to help the people who need improvement, but since I need improvement as well (or how will I ever climb the ladder?) I'd really appreciate it if people could help me make my guide(s) better.
I've found the How to Play series to be invaluable while learning to play, in fact I still frequently pull up the How to Play page for a matchup the moment I discover what faction I am fighting against. There are many sad holes in the How to Play guide, however, and I haven't seen anyone try to update or finish it for a while. Here is the first of my attempts to fix it. If everybody likes what I've written here, I'll put it on the wiki, but I wanted to get everyone's feedback first. With no further ado, here is my guide to Loyalists vs. Undead!
===Loyalists vs. Undead===
Your recruiting pattern will depend on whether your opponent spams Skeleton Archers or Dark Adepts for ranged attacks. If you see lots of skeletons, you'll have to focus heavily on HI and Mages. If you see lots of DAs, you'll want some Cavalry, Horsemen and maybe some Spearmen.
* Bowman - D- - Almost entirely useless. You might use them to poke at Walking Corpses, Ghouls, Vampire Bats and Ghosts, but Mages are much better at all of these things. I would only buy a Bowman to counter a large zombie horde.
* Cavalryman - B+ - You'll want some Cavalry for scouting and dealing initial damage to DAs so that a Horseman can finish them. They are also decent at fighting Skeletons in the daytime, because Cavalry are blade-resistant. However, the cheap Skeleton Archers will really ruin Cavalry quickly at night, so if there are any Skeleton Archers on the other side you won't be able to use Cavalry to hold territory. If your opponent over-recruits DAs, however, you can use cold-resistant Cavalry to hold territory against them. They are also decent for holding territory against Ghouls because they can run away and heal (unlike your HI).
* Fencer - C- - Fencers are a bad recruit in this matchup because they are vulnerable to the blade and pierce damage of skeletons and cannot damage them much in return. They also are incapable of holding territory against DAs, who cut right through the high defense of Fencers. However, you may want to have a Fencer or two around for trapping DAs or getting in that last hit. With luck, they may also be able to frustrate non-magical attacks from skeletons and the like.
* Heavy Infantryman - B+ - You need Heavy Infantry to hold territory against Skeletons and Skeleton Archers, and they will be your unit of choice for dealing melee damage, especially to the cheap Skeleton Archers. Any HI in the daytime can kill a full-health skeleton archer in two hits, while a strong HI in the daytime can kill a full-health skeleton in two hits, dealing 18 damage per strike (even a Mage in daytime cannot kill a skeleton in one round, unless supported by a Lieutenant). A fearless HI may be dangerous even at night. If you don't have enough HI to go around, you can get your initial hits in on a Skeleton Archer with an HI and finish him with a Mage. Just keep HI away from DAs, and only let Ghouls hit HI if the HI is on a village (or has a White Mage or other healer next to him), since HI can't easily run away to heal. Also beware Walking Corpses, which deal a surprising amount of damage at all times of day since HI can't dodge and impact damage goes around their resistances, and the ranged cold attack of Ghosts. The biggest problem with HI is they are slow, which means they're hard to retreat at night and hard to advance in day. Without shielding units they'll get trapped and killed, and if you have to shield a unit maybe it should be a Mage instead.
* Horseman - B - Because they deal pierce damage, Horsemen may not be very useful when faced with Skeletons. However, if your opponent over-recruits Dark Adepts, Horsemen can be extremely useful, as DAs deal no return damage to the normally risky charge attack, and Horsemen are resistant to the cold counterattacks of the DAs. Horsemen can even be used to finish Skeleton Archers, their nemesis, in the daytime. However, if your opponent recruits enough Skeleton Archers you will have a hard time shielding your Horsemen from their devastating pierce attacks, and Skeleton Archers are dirt cheap. Horsemen can also one-shot bats and zombies, which can be useful if you need to clear out a lot of lvl 0 units quickly. I would want to have at least one Horseman around to keep my opponent from getting too bold with DAs, if not more. Your opponent will be forced to recruit DAs if you have HI in the field.
* Mage - A+ - Mages are an absolute necessity against Undead. If you do not have Mages it will be almost impossible for you to kill Ghosts, but with Mages it's a piece of cake. Mages are the best unit for killing almost everything Undead can throw at you, and can even be used to finish Dark Adepts in the daytime. Your main problem is that Dark Adepts are cheaper and deal almost as much damage, so your opponent can spam DAs while you cannot afford to spam Mages. You will also have the difficult task of shielding fragile, expensive mages against lots of cheap Undead units. Your opponent will use Skeletons and Ghouls to attack your Mages when he can, but bats, zombies or just about any other unit will do for killing your Mages in a pinch. Shield your Mages well, surround them with damage soakers and if you can deliver them safely to their targets you'll be able to clear out the Undead quickly.
* Merman Fighter - C- - Mermen make a decent navy against Undead, since bats and Ghosts will have a hard time killing them with their high defense. Even Dark Adepts will find Mermen annoying because of their 20% cold resistance. However, Mermen will have a hard time hurting anything the Undead have with their lame pierce weapon. Generally Mermen are only good for holding water hexes and scouting, but don't underestimate how useful that can be. Some well-placed Mermen on a water map can prevent bats from sneaking behind your lines and capturing villages or killing injured units. Even on mostly land maps, a Merman in a river can help hold a defensive line, or a quick Merman can use a river to slip behind the enemy to trap DAs or other units that are trying to escape at daytime.
* Spearman - C- - Spearmen are mostly useful as cheap units for holding villages and occupying space when faced with Dark Adepts or Skeleton Archers. (You'll want to avoid letting DAs hit your Heavy Infantrymen because of their vulnerability to cold.) However, you don't really want Spearmen to take hits from DAs, it would be better to let the cold-resistant Cavalry absorb the damage. The only units Spearmen are good for attacking are Dark Adepts and Walking Corpses. Spearmen are completely useless against skeletons unless you level one into a Swordsman, and even then they're pretty mediocre. However, if there are lots of Skeleton Archers you won't be able to use much Cavalry or Horsemen, so a Spearman or two may be necessary as defenders and damage soakers even if they are lousy at dealing damage to Undead.
I've found the How to Play series to be invaluable while learning to play, in fact I still frequently pull up the How to Play page for a matchup the moment I discover what faction I am fighting against. There are many sad holes in the How to Play guide, however, and I haven't seen anyone try to update or finish it for a while. Here is the first of my attempts to fix it. If everybody likes what I've written here, I'll put it on the wiki, but I wanted to get everyone's feedback first. With no further ado, here is my guide to Loyalists vs. Undead!
===Loyalists vs. Undead===
Your recruiting pattern will depend on whether your opponent spams Skeleton Archers or Dark Adepts for ranged attacks. If you see lots of skeletons, you'll have to focus heavily on HI and Mages. If you see lots of DAs, you'll want some Cavalry, Horsemen and maybe some Spearmen.
* Bowman - D- - Almost entirely useless. You might use them to poke at Walking Corpses, Ghouls, Vampire Bats and Ghosts, but Mages are much better at all of these things. I would only buy a Bowman to counter a large zombie horde.
* Cavalryman - B+ - You'll want some Cavalry for scouting and dealing initial damage to DAs so that a Horseman can finish them. They are also decent at fighting Skeletons in the daytime, because Cavalry are blade-resistant. However, the cheap Skeleton Archers will really ruin Cavalry quickly at night, so if there are any Skeleton Archers on the other side you won't be able to use Cavalry to hold territory. If your opponent over-recruits DAs, however, you can use cold-resistant Cavalry to hold territory against them. They are also decent for holding territory against Ghouls because they can run away and heal (unlike your HI).
* Fencer - C- - Fencers are a bad recruit in this matchup because they are vulnerable to the blade and pierce damage of skeletons and cannot damage them much in return. They also are incapable of holding territory against DAs, who cut right through the high defense of Fencers. However, you may want to have a Fencer or two around for trapping DAs or getting in that last hit. With luck, they may also be able to frustrate non-magical attacks from skeletons and the like.
* Heavy Infantryman - B+ - You need Heavy Infantry to hold territory against Skeletons and Skeleton Archers, and they will be your unit of choice for dealing melee damage, especially to the cheap Skeleton Archers. Any HI in the daytime can kill a full-health skeleton archer in two hits, while a strong HI in the daytime can kill a full-health skeleton in two hits, dealing 18 damage per strike (even a Mage in daytime cannot kill a skeleton in one round, unless supported by a Lieutenant). A fearless HI may be dangerous even at night. If you don't have enough HI to go around, you can get your initial hits in on a Skeleton Archer with an HI and finish him with a Mage. Just keep HI away from DAs, and only let Ghouls hit HI if the HI is on a village (or has a White Mage or other healer next to him), since HI can't easily run away to heal. Also beware Walking Corpses, which deal a surprising amount of damage at all times of day since HI can't dodge and impact damage goes around their resistances, and the ranged cold attack of Ghosts. The biggest problem with HI is they are slow, which means they're hard to retreat at night and hard to advance in day. Without shielding units they'll get trapped and killed, and if you have to shield a unit maybe it should be a Mage instead.
* Horseman - B - Because they deal pierce damage, Horsemen may not be very useful when faced with Skeletons. However, if your opponent over-recruits Dark Adepts, Horsemen can be extremely useful, as DAs deal no return damage to the normally risky charge attack, and Horsemen are resistant to the cold counterattacks of the DAs. Horsemen can even be used to finish Skeleton Archers, their nemesis, in the daytime. However, if your opponent recruits enough Skeleton Archers you will have a hard time shielding your Horsemen from their devastating pierce attacks, and Skeleton Archers are dirt cheap. Horsemen can also one-shot bats and zombies, which can be useful if you need to clear out a lot of lvl 0 units quickly. I would want to have at least one Horseman around to keep my opponent from getting too bold with DAs, if not more. Your opponent will be forced to recruit DAs if you have HI in the field.
* Mage - A+ - Mages are an absolute necessity against Undead. If you do not have Mages it will be almost impossible for you to kill Ghosts, but with Mages it's a piece of cake. Mages are the best unit for killing almost everything Undead can throw at you, and can even be used to finish Dark Adepts in the daytime. Your main problem is that Dark Adepts are cheaper and deal almost as much damage, so your opponent can spam DAs while you cannot afford to spam Mages. You will also have the difficult task of shielding fragile, expensive mages against lots of cheap Undead units. Your opponent will use Skeletons and Ghouls to attack your Mages when he can, but bats, zombies or just about any other unit will do for killing your Mages in a pinch. Shield your Mages well, surround them with damage soakers and if you can deliver them safely to their targets you'll be able to clear out the Undead quickly.
* Merman Fighter - C- - Mermen make a decent navy against Undead, since bats and Ghosts will have a hard time killing them with their high defense. Even Dark Adepts will find Mermen annoying because of their 20% cold resistance. However, Mermen will have a hard time hurting anything the Undead have with their lame pierce weapon. Generally Mermen are only good for holding water hexes and scouting, but don't underestimate how useful that can be. Some well-placed Mermen on a water map can prevent bats from sneaking behind your lines and capturing villages or killing injured units. Even on mostly land maps, a Merman in a river can help hold a defensive line, or a quick Merman can use a river to slip behind the enemy to trap DAs or other units that are trying to escape at daytime.
* Spearman - C- - Spearmen are mostly useful as cheap units for holding villages and occupying space when faced with Dark Adepts or Skeleton Archers. (You'll want to avoid letting DAs hit your Heavy Infantrymen because of their vulnerability to cold.) However, you don't really want Spearmen to take hits from DAs, it would be better to let the cold-resistant Cavalry absorb the damage. The only units Spearmen are good for attacking are Dark Adepts and Walking Corpses. Spearmen are completely useless against skeletons unless you level one into a Swordsman, and even then they're pretty mediocre. However, if there are lots of Skeleton Archers you won't be able to use much Cavalry or Horsemen, so a Spearman or two may be necessary as defenders and damage soakers even if they are lousy at dealing damage to Undead.
Last edited by nelson on May 2nd, 2010, 2:49 am, edited 11 times in total.
Re: How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
I would bump the cavalryman up to an A-; blade and cold resist mean that the only thing the enemy can bring to bear against it is skeleton archers. These guys can tank against anything but skeleton archers tolerably at night, and can escape to heal from poison during a daytime assault.
Similarly, I'd bump the HI down to a B-, because they're slow. You don't want to be fighting the undead at night, and using a lot of HI actually makes your army slower than the slowest faction in the game, which makes it hard to push back during the day. If the enemy is very heavy on skeletons, lower on skeleton archers, and barely using DAs, they're better, but a skeleton archer and DA heavy undead army will make short work of them.
Bowmen are sometimes better than spearmen, if the enemy is using less skeleton archers, and more ghouls and ghosts.
In general, the utility of the Loyalist units in this matchup depends heavily on the undead army composition. Playing against ghouls, adepts, and corpses requires different units than playing against skeletons, skeleton archers, and ghosts, for instance.
Similarly, I'd bump the HI down to a B-, because they're slow. You don't want to be fighting the undead at night, and using a lot of HI actually makes your army slower than the slowest faction in the game, which makes it hard to push back during the day. If the enemy is very heavy on skeletons, lower on skeleton archers, and barely using DAs, they're better, but a skeleton archer and DA heavy undead army will make short work of them.
Bowmen are sometimes better than spearmen, if the enemy is using less skeleton archers, and more ghouls and ghosts.
In general, the utility of the Loyalist units in this matchup depends heavily on the undead army composition. Playing against ghouls, adepts, and corpses requires different units than playing against skeletons, skeleton archers, and ghosts, for instance.
Re: How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
Caphriel, I can see the argument for bumping up Cavalry, although I maintain that since Skeleton Archers are an extremely lethal, hard to kill, and dirt cheap counter to mounted units, you'll be forced to drop the horses if you see lots of skeleton archers in the field. That's why I don't rate the cavalry higher.
Downgrading HI though sounds crazy to me. Skeleton archers might hurt HI without taking retaliation, but HI are pierce resistant and demolish skeletons on the counterattack, so I would be very reluctant to take on HI with skeleton archers. HI really only need to fear DAs when they are sitting on a village. Ghosts, zombies and ghouls are all a problem when HI aren't on a village, but you'll frequently be using HI to hold villages on defense due to their slowness. The upside is that unless your opponent has lots of DAs, HI are amazing on villages, and if he has too many DAs *then* your cavalry and horsemen can clean them up. Besides, some HI are fearless and good to fight even at night. With HI, you can hold territory against undead, without HI you really can't, that's why you need some in your army.
Downgrading HI though sounds crazy to me. Skeleton archers might hurt HI without taking retaliation, but HI are pierce resistant and demolish skeletons on the counterattack, so I would be very reluctant to take on HI with skeleton archers. HI really only need to fear DAs when they are sitting on a village. Ghosts, zombies and ghouls are all a problem when HI aren't on a village, but you'll frequently be using HI to hold villages on defense due to their slowness. The upside is that unless your opponent has lots of DAs, HI are amazing on villages, and if he has too many DAs *then* your cavalry and horsemen can clean them up. Besides, some HI are fearless and good to fight even at night. With HI, you can hold territory against undead, without HI you really can't, that's why you need some in your army.
Re: How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
Firstly, only cavalry have the 20% cold resist (and mermen) the horseman does not have cold resist.
Secondly, I agree with caphriel on the cavalry. Being able to outrun and outmaneuver the slow undead is a great advantage to have, whether it's threatening villages, creating far spread traps to squash over-extending night forces, and generally forcing the undead to move the way you want them to in order to protect the all squishy adept, of which they will still recruit despite the cavalry, due to needing a surefire way to remove anything else, including magi if necessary.
I'd also drop the HI rating myself. Since speed is such a great weapon to use against the undead, and due to their incredible firepower in the adept, you don't really want to be forfeiting such an advantage, especially since I don't think a good player of UD would even allow HI to get within striking distance of any of their units at day other than very exceptional circumstances, and at night your somewhat hindered by the fact undead will be cheaper than your anti-UD recruit, and therefore be overwhelmed by numbers.
Just my thoughts
Secondly, I agree with caphriel on the cavalry. Being able to outrun and outmaneuver the slow undead is a great advantage to have, whether it's threatening villages, creating far spread traps to squash over-extending night forces, and generally forcing the undead to move the way you want them to in order to protect the all squishy adept, of which they will still recruit despite the cavalry, due to needing a surefire way to remove anything else, including magi if necessary.
I'd also drop the HI rating myself. Since speed is such a great weapon to use against the undead, and due to their incredible firepower in the adept, you don't really want to be forfeiting such an advantage, especially since I don't think a good player of UD would even allow HI to get within striking distance of any of their units at day other than very exceptional circumstances, and at night your somewhat hindered by the fact undead will be cheaper than your anti-UD recruit, and therefore be overwhelmed by numbers.
Just my thoughts
Re: How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
Wow, you're right. I just assumed that horsemen had the same resists as cavalry, and that makes me stupid. I wonder why they are different that way from cavalry? Horsemen are also less resistant to blade and impact than cavalry, for people who didn't know that... Horsemen=20% blade and 30% impact, Cavalry get 30% blade and 40% impact.
You learn something every day.
You learn something every day.
Re: How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
Skeleton archers do 5-3 to cavalrymen at day. That's not terribly lethal. If you're engaging the undead at night, you probably did something wrong, since cavalrymen are much faster.nelson wrote:Caphriel, I can see the argument for bumping up Cavalry, although I maintain that since Skeleton Archers are an extremely lethal, hard to kill, and dirt cheap counter to mounted units, you'll be forced to drop the horses if you see lots of skeleton archers in the field. That's why I don't rate the cavalry higher.
Skeleton archers do 5-3 to HI at night, 4-3 at twilight, and 3-3 during the day. Considering how low HI evade values are, that plinking adds up quickly. Especially because the HI are slow and have a bad movetype, you'll be lucky to catch them at day, and will have difficulty escaping at night. If you have to slow down your entire force to protect your HI from the relatively speedy DAs, you'll get mauled.nelson wrote:Downgrading HI though sounds crazy to me. Skeleton archers might hurt HI without taking retaliation, but HI are pierce resistant and demolish skeletons on the counterattack, so I would be very reluctant to take on HI with skeleton archers. HI really only need to fear DAs when they are sitting on a village. Ghosts, zombies and ghouls are all a problem when HI aren't on a village, but you'll frequently be using HI to hold villages on defense due to their slowness. The upside is that unless your opponent has lots of DAs, HI are amazing on villages, and if he has too many DAs *then* your cavalry and horsemen can clean them up. Besides, some HI are fearless and good to fight even at night.
It doesn't take a DA-heavy force to kick HI off of a village. Two hits will kill a quick one that isn't also resilient, and three hits will always kill.
You cannot hold territory against the undead at night without taking prohibitive casualties in general. If you are playing relying on HI, your ability to push during the day will be hampered, as will your ability to retreat at night. For one more gold, you can get a mage, which move faster, hits more often, does more damage, and is effective against more units. The only role HI players better than a mage is defense, and DAs render it pretty poor at that.nelson wrote:With HI, you can hold territory against undead, without HI you really can't, that's why you need some in your army.
Edit: The reason I consider skeleton archers' plinking more dangerous to HI than to cavalry is the time of day it will generally take place during. If they're plinking your cavalry at day, they're fighting you during the day, which is good. However, they will probably be plinking your HI at night, when if you stay to fight, you will be slaughtered.
Re: How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
OK, so much for defense against skeleton archers, but what about dealing damage? Cavalry don't do serious damage to Skeletons or Skeleton Archers. Any HI however in the daytime has a decent chance of killing a full-health skeleton archer in two hits, while a strong HI in the daytime deals 18 damage per strike and can kill a full-health skeleton in two hits. If you don't bring HI with you on offense, you'll have to use Mages to deal damage to skeleton archers, which isn't as much fun. Cavalry are fine for damage soaking and attacking other units like DAs, but HI are necessary for assaulting an entrenched position such as a village.
UPDATE: OK, I see that you're suggesting swapping HI for Mages, rather than swapping HI for cavalry. That makes some sense, but I still say that mages can't take hits from much of anything and fall apart quickly, while in the daytime HI can absorb hits from just about anything except DAs. HI are part of this complete assault force.
Besides, you don't have to hit with HI to use them effectively. You keep them back and use them to *threaten* a village or other entrenched position, and only advance with them if your enemy is foolish enough to stay put.
UPDATE: OK, I see that you're suggesting swapping HI for Mages, rather than swapping HI for cavalry. That makes some sense, but I still say that mages can't take hits from much of anything and fall apart quickly, while in the daytime HI can absorb hits from just about anything except DAs. HI are part of this complete assault force.
Besides, you don't have to hit with HI to use them effectively. You keep them back and use them to *threaten* a village or other entrenched position, and only advance with them if your enemy is foolish enough to stay put.
Last edited by nelson on March 31st, 2010, 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
Problem is that mages cost one more, are fast enough to get to enemy villages and away with ToD shift and are even better at getting enemies out of villages.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
Re: How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
I'm not saying you shouldn't use HI at all. I suggested downgrading them to a B-; useful, but not a core unit. Especially against a skeletal-heavy undead player, HI are certainly useful. It's just, as Velensk and I have pointed out, mages are almost always better than HI. They just need to be protected from retaliation a little more thoroughly.
Re: How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
I made some edits, how is it looking now? I downgraded HI and upgraded cavalry, although not as much as suggested... I set them to be equal at a B+, which is how they are in my mind now.
Re: How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
Thanks for the effort, nelson!
Maybe it would make more sense to give units live Cavalry and Heavy Infantry variable ratings and then make it even clearer than now that their rating depends on the composition of the enemy’s army? After all it doesn’t make sense to let your helpful guide be constricted by a rating rule that may be too rigid for a variable game like Wesnoth.
Maybe it would make more sense to give units live Cavalry and Heavy Infantry variable ratings and then make it even clearer than now that their rating depends on the composition of the enemy’s army? After all it doesn’t make sense to let your helpful guide be constricted by a rating rule that may be too rigid for a variable game like Wesnoth.
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Tropical_Bob
- Posts: 2
- Joined: July 10th, 2009, 2:15 am
Re: How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
Wow, awesome! I've been waiting for a good in-depth guide for Loyalist v. Undead for a while. The last time I checked, all I found was "Fight during the day, run at night, and may God have mercy on your soul." When the only guy I ever play this game with enjoys taunting me with the Undead hordes, that's just not quite enough.
So thank you, and here's to me hopefully winning the next bout!
So thank you, and here's to me hopefully winning the next bout!
Re: How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
Alright, I've posted this text at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/How_to_play_Loyalists ... thanks for the feedback everyone! I'll post more "How to Play" guides soon!
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Tropical_Bob
- Posts: 2
- Joined: July 10th, 2009, 2:15 am
Re: How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
Something I would like an opinion on would be on how to counter Bats. Both cheap and fast, they're used as both scouts and village snatchers. The problem is, all the good Loyalist counters to the Undead are expensive, so you're highly reliant on income, which the Undead nab with ease. It's mentioned that Horsemen will take Bats out in one hit, but then you have at least one missing from the front, where they'll be needed to nuke the DAs.
What suggestions might you have?
What suggestions might you have?
Re: How to Play: Loyalists vs. Undead
If at all possible, use Zone of Control to prevent the bats from slipping past your lines. If you can't prevent that, try to prevent them from getting to a location that will draw your forces away from the front. This is very map-dependent. Some of your units can deal with them acceptably even at night (mages, cavalry), so the biggest problem bats pose is slipping past your line and stealing villages while your army is toward the front, pressing. Cavalrymen make good choices for trapping/killing bats, in my opinion, because they're fast enough to get to the front afterwards and they don't draw a critical damage-dealer away from the attack like using a mage does. It's unfortunately very situational. If you have a mage leader, they can help out significantly with daytime village stealers.