Northeners

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geg_Ma3gau
Posts: 8
Joined: May 2nd, 2009, 2:30 pm

Northeners

Post by geg_Ma3gau »

Hi guys.

Im stuck with an opinion that northeners are the weakest side as it is. Been watching few replays and the game always goes like this: northeners exchange blows, have their more powerful enemies barely alive but die themselves. Those barely alive units just retreat heal and eventually level up which is a point of no return. I think something wrong with the balance of orcs, they are cheap but they have no magic, no healing, no special units. Orcs were the race that caught my eye when i started playing although now i play only random. Assassins are 17 gp poison-one-unit-suicide-mission squad still imo. Noone really chooses northeners on MP xcept for random. I see drakes chosen, undeads chosed, like every other race. Northeners are considered too weak and i believe rightly so. I think the northeners were balanced like 7 grunts vs 6 spearmen but the fact that more powerful units are easier to keep alive and level up wasnt taken into account.

What do you guys think.

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Pentarctagon
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Re: Northeners

Post by Pentarctagon »

if both sides have the same number of units, then yes, northerners are weaker. however, while they have no magic/healing, they have the assassin with marksman/poison and the trolls which are cheap (13 gold), have good hp, regenerates, resistance to blade/pierce, and they can get the fearless trait.
Assassins are 17 gp poison-one-unit-suicide-mission squad still imo.
sure, if you send them in alone. send them in with a a couple grunts/whelps and it works out much better.
I think the northeners were balanced like 7 grunts vs 6 spearmen but the fact that more powerful units are easier to keep alive and level up wasnt taken into account.
a) comparing single units to each other isnt a very good way to look for balance. b) for the sake of argument, how does 6/7 troll grunts vs 6 spearmen workout?
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Caphriel
Posts: 994
Joined: April 21st, 2008, 4:10 pm

Re: Northeners

Post by Caphriel »

I disagree entirely. Check out some statistics. The northerners perform just fine in practice.

I find they generally start very strong and get a bit weaker over time. Northerners have a plethora of advantages that come from having more units on the field:
  • More effective Zone of Control
  • Easier to steal villages
  • Easier to leave a unit on a village to prevent theft
  • Loss of a single unit (for instance, due to bad luck) hurts less
They also have several specials. They have a regenerating unit, marksman and poison (on the same attack!), a level 0 unit (no upkeep!), and good access to fire damage. The wolfrider, if intelligent, can easily level up and get a fire attack and a slow attack.

If you think that the assassins ought to die after a single use, you're using them wrong. They're not meant to be sent out alone to poison a single unit. Northerners, like any other faction, need to stick together to win.

It's a little funny that you're complaining they're underpowered, when there was relatively recently a long argument about how the grunt was overpowered. Perhaps you should try to dig it up.

donkey_noob_trash1
Posts: 147
Joined: March 1st, 2009, 6:16 am

Re: Northeners

Post by donkey_noob_trash1 »

Caphriel wrote:I disagree entirely. Check out some statistics. The northerners perform just fine in practice.

I find they generally start very strong and get a bit weaker over time. Northerners have a plethora of advantages that come from having more units on the field:
  • More effective Zone of Control
  • Easier to steal villages
  • Easier to leave a unit on a village to prevent theft
  • Loss of a single unit (for instance, due to bad luck) hurts less
They also have several specials. They have a regenerating unit, marksman and poison (on the same attack!), a level 0 unit (no upkeep!), and good access to fire damage. The wolfrider, if intelligent, can easily level up and get a fire attack and a slow attack.

If you think that the assassins ought to die after a single use, you're using them wrong. They're not meant to be sent out alone to poison a single unit. Northerners, like any other faction, need to stick together to win.

It's a little funny that you're complaining they're underpowered, when there was relatively recently a long argument about how the grunt was overpowered. Perhaps you should try to dig it up.
If you don't believe Caph, just check out my replay... :D
grunts_rule.gz
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geg_Ma3gau
Posts: 8
Joined: May 2nd, 2009, 2:30 pm

Re: Northeners

Post by geg_Ma3gau »

Oh :D maybe everything not that bad then :D
That dude had bad luck and extremely bad recruiting of like 2 more useless cavalry.

Mabuse
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Re: Northeners

Post by Mabuse »

orcs are fine.
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multilis
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Joined: November 27th, 2006, 12:36 am

Re: Northeners

Post by multilis »

IMO orcs are fine as well, but they require different strategy than many other races. I have seen players who could do orcs but *not* do certain other races like drakes.

Orcs tend to win by stealing villages more than killing units. Grunts are cheap with lots of hit points, one of best units to hold a village. Assassins with their poison marksman ability are useful against non undead... even have *small* use against undead verses bats, ghosts, adepts at day.

Attached is a funny 3 player game where northerners win, despite some bad luck. Dwarf player drops, ai for dwarf is very lucky and strangely successful with only 1 or 2 units. In end becomes contest to beat the ai with 1 or 2 units, as drake player loses his king but battles on with rest to try and make it a draw.
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3p_-_funny_save_ai_game.gz
Long 3 player game, in end fight between northerners and AI assisted by leaderless drakes
(35.45 KiB) Downloaded 141 times

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CheeseLord
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Re: Northeners

Post by CheeseLord »

Agreed,
Here's a replay of a example of orcs winning. I played against my big bro, who is usually quite decent. A little luck on both sides but anyway, should illustrate my point :)
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2p_-_Den_of_Onis_replay_WIn.gz
(15.76 KiB) Downloaded 159 times
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Huumy
Posts: 292
Joined: October 15th, 2009, 9:52 pm

Re: Northeners

Post by Huumy »

Well I think playing with northeners players usually attack first or second night.

Attacking first night. (this is playstyle that I never been good at but some players pull it out real good)
You may want to try few games just attacking fast as possible (if the enemy isn't orcs). At nighttime try get as many kills as possible and steal villages, day time try keep as many villages as possible, buy nonstop grunts/(assassin) and send them to fight. Try not to buy too many archers/trolls/wolfs because they either are slow or have less HP than grunts. Good thing is poison enemy leader if you have a chance.

Attacking second night (this is how I usually play with orcs)
Going vs random theres 3 cases that your opponent is going to attack first night: orcs, ud, and dwarves. So here what you do, first recruit buy 1wolf (to grab village fast and scout) + 2-4 grunts (depends on map) so you get villages fast and cheap. Scouting is important, don't buy more units if enemy isn't attacking. usually lawful factions dont attack first night but they buy more units at first turn than you did. If your opponent threatening to attack you first night then you need to buy more troops tho vs lawful factions not many.
In case of lawful faction they are attacking your front villages in turn 7 or 8 (when the day is starting) then you need to start recruiting more units (in every matchup is important to recruit the right units) and usually you have to give your opponent 1 or 2 free villages, do this without getting any casualties.
Then at turn 9, 1 turn before dawn move your unit in good position where they are in good terrain but also in good position to attack the villages you lost. At this point you should have spent all your money into recruiting units and you should have 1 or 2 units recruited this turn. Also remember to move your leader in good attacking position too.
At turn 10 your opponent will flee, this turn is important
1. Trap as many enemy units as you can (you dont have to kill them just trap).
2. Use your slowest/furthest units that can't reach enemy or even move near them ot grab your villages.
3. Try not to get your front units damaged too bad.
After this you can attack finish the trapped units and push the rest of your opponent army back. Retreat before next day, attack next night and so on...
If you are player 2, you might be able to try trap units even at turn 9, cause your opponent turn will already be dawn.

Everything in wesnoth (and in real life) depends on situation, but especially for new players it might help to go into game with certain strategy and try what works and what don't work.

Long post, got exited... hope it isn't too messy :)
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Just_end_turn
Posts: 71
Joined: December 31st, 2009, 3:09 pm

Re: Northeners

Post by Just_end_turn »

Dwarves won't attack northeners at night I think :).

Only in some cases where one flank is unprotected.

donkey_noob_trash1
Posts: 147
Joined: March 1st, 2009, 6:16 am

Re: Northeners

Post by donkey_noob_trash1 »

I am a little tired of hearing people say stuff about how this or that race is over or under powered. The fact of the matter is: HOW YOU PLAY THAT RACE ON WHICHEVER MAP YOU ARE PLAYING ON, COMBINED WITH LUCK, WILL DETERMINE HOW "STRONG" OR "WEAK" IT IS!!!!

There are a lot of factors that go into how you should play against someone, not just your faction. Making broad statements about any faction just makes you look like a whiney noob. Guess what? I think elves suck! Why? Because they're the race that I'm least proficient with. And why am I not as proficient with them? I like the unit selections of other factions better, and thus don't use elves very often. If you think orcs suck, play as them more... and play them in a variety of contexts. That's how you get good at this game.

/end rant
"Oh noes, I'm trapped by corporeal beings!" -Caphriel (in a discussion about ghosts and ZoC)

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