Ten strategies adapted from Go
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Ten strategies adapted from Go
These ten strategies are summerized by two top Go players from Japan and China in 1920s. I will try to use them as guidelines and discuss their applications to wesnoth.
Note: these are strategies (aka, macros), not tactics (aka, micros). In my opinion, in wesnoth, macros are easier to learn but hard to master; micros are hard to learn but easier to master.
I will first translate the rule into english and then try to explain its use in wesnoth.
1. Don't be greedy - there is no "must-kill-unit" or "must-take-village". Even there is a 1hp unit on 20% def for you to kill, check its surrounding first and measure if it is worth it. Same for empty villages - weak units and empty villages are often well-laid traps.
2. Invade slowly - don't rush army into enemy territory. Watch out possible counter attacks and flanks. Move forward a little every turn and fortify you own defence until you can pull out an effective offense.
3. Attack when there is opportunity - If it is a 2 vs 2 game, is your enemy distracted by your ally? If there is no opportunity, try to make one. Send a fast unit beyond enemy's army to distract them, etc.
4. Defend the critical points - Villages are source of income and thus source of power. It is better defending a village (either by putting a high hp unit in it or threaten it with strong forces) than defending a high def ground such as a mountain. So when your power is limited and can't hold all the ground you want, choose the most critical points and defend those. For example, if it is a two front war, you can send more units to the side with 3 villages over the side with a single village.
5. Sacrafice for strategic advantage - If it is not your time of day or ground of favor to fight, and enemy trapped one of your unit - discard that unit and retreat the rest of your army. It is better to lose one than lose all. Same for laying a trap when you can get much more for losing a weak unit.
6. Discard the weaker to save the stronger - Put cheap units (fighters, grunts etc) in the front so that strong units will be available for counter attack. Example would be if enemy has a mage, you can put a fighter in front of your own wose, or spearman in front of HI; or put drake fighters/scout in front of clasher if enemy has enough archers to make a kill.
7. Keep units coordinated - If you are making an offense, make sure that you save enough strength to counter the counter-attack, that is make sure 2nd line force can go for another offense. You can attack and village steal the same turn so enemy has to choose which he has to deal with. This is probably the most important aspect for 2 vs 2; 3 vs 3 games.
8. Don't be careless - You don't win the game because you have won a battle. Don't rush in even if you currently have adventage, watch out enemy reinforcement and time of day - it may be much more effective if you have your units healed and wait for a time of day favoring you.
9. Play Defence when enemy is stronger - Defence in wesnoth is much easier than offence. If your force is outnumbered, play defensively, even it is your favorable time of day. Playing defensive often give you higher def terrans and easier reinforcement and help of your leader.
10. Power is more important than land - Give up the village(s) if you have to (ususally enemy's time of day). If you save your army, you can take the villages back later. If the defender of the village dies, you lose the village anyway on top of the defending unit.
Many of these are pretty easy and some are very interesting. I hope you can find some being helpful.
5dPZ
Note: these are strategies (aka, macros), not tactics (aka, micros). In my opinion, in wesnoth, macros are easier to learn but hard to master; micros are hard to learn but easier to master.
I will first translate the rule into english and then try to explain its use in wesnoth.
1. Don't be greedy - there is no "must-kill-unit" or "must-take-village". Even there is a 1hp unit on 20% def for you to kill, check its surrounding first and measure if it is worth it. Same for empty villages - weak units and empty villages are often well-laid traps.
2. Invade slowly - don't rush army into enemy territory. Watch out possible counter attacks and flanks. Move forward a little every turn and fortify you own defence until you can pull out an effective offense.
3. Attack when there is opportunity - If it is a 2 vs 2 game, is your enemy distracted by your ally? If there is no opportunity, try to make one. Send a fast unit beyond enemy's army to distract them, etc.
4. Defend the critical points - Villages are source of income and thus source of power. It is better defending a village (either by putting a high hp unit in it or threaten it with strong forces) than defending a high def ground such as a mountain. So when your power is limited and can't hold all the ground you want, choose the most critical points and defend those. For example, if it is a two front war, you can send more units to the side with 3 villages over the side with a single village.
5. Sacrafice for strategic advantage - If it is not your time of day or ground of favor to fight, and enemy trapped one of your unit - discard that unit and retreat the rest of your army. It is better to lose one than lose all. Same for laying a trap when you can get much more for losing a weak unit.
6. Discard the weaker to save the stronger - Put cheap units (fighters, grunts etc) in the front so that strong units will be available for counter attack. Example would be if enemy has a mage, you can put a fighter in front of your own wose, or spearman in front of HI; or put drake fighters/scout in front of clasher if enemy has enough archers to make a kill.
7. Keep units coordinated - If you are making an offense, make sure that you save enough strength to counter the counter-attack, that is make sure 2nd line force can go for another offense. You can attack and village steal the same turn so enemy has to choose which he has to deal with. This is probably the most important aspect for 2 vs 2; 3 vs 3 games.
8. Don't be careless - You don't win the game because you have won a battle. Don't rush in even if you currently have adventage, watch out enemy reinforcement and time of day - it may be much more effective if you have your units healed and wait for a time of day favoring you.
9. Play Defence when enemy is stronger - Defence in wesnoth is much easier than offence. If your force is outnumbered, play defensively, even it is your favorable time of day. Playing defensive often give you higher def terrans and easier reinforcement and help of your leader.
10. Power is more important than land - Give up the village(s) if you have to (ususally enemy's time of day). If you save your army, you can take the villages back later. If the defender of the village dies, you lose the village anyway on top of the defending unit.
Many of these are pretty easy and some are very interesting. I hope you can find some being helpful.
5dPZ
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Yogibear
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Re: Ten strategies adapted from Go
Those are indeed nice rules.
The only one i am critical about is number 2. I found that dynamics and momentum is crucial for a successful attack, at least when playing 1v1.
That means if you see a chance, go for it. Often you only have one turn of serious fighting.
If you think you are stronger don't hesitate. Move your units to the frontline as far as possible, one hex might make a difference for a scout to threaten a village or for another heavy hitter to get into attack distance.
Put as much pressure on your opponent as you can. If the map has several frontlines, press on all of them (unless you are considerably weaker and thus have to fear an attack). Even if you don't plan to attack because you lack "break-through power", it binds your opponents forces to hold position instead of reinforce the other frontlines.
The only one i am critical about is number 2. I found that dynamics and momentum is crucial for a successful attack, at least when playing 1v1.
That means if you see a chance, go for it. Often you only have one turn of serious fighting.
If you think you are stronger don't hesitate. Move your units to the frontline as far as possible, one hex might make a difference for a scout to threaten a village or for another heavy hitter to get into attack distance.
Put as much pressure on your opponent as you can. If the map has several frontlines, press on all of them (unless you are considerably weaker and thus have to fear an attack). Even if you don't plan to attack because you lack "break-through power", it binds your opponents forces to hold position instead of reinforce the other frontlines.
Smart persons learn out of their mistakes, wise persons learn out of others mistakes!
Re: Ten strategies adapted from Go
I'll agree with Yogi but I'd also point out that most of these mean something very diffrent in Go than they do in Wesnoth.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
Re: Ten strategies adapted from Go
Yet it seems that mst of these strategies are kind of "general strategies" - so they can be quite fairly applied to just about anywhere.Velensk wrote:I'll agree with Yogi but I'd also point out that most of these mean something very diffrent in Go than they do in Wesnoth.
Re: Ten strategies adapted from Go
It is interesting see how other players see wesnoth inside their minds. I often have related go and wesnoth insede mine, but for a different reason. It´s mostly for the kind of "chains" you often form with your units for zoc and coordination, the 0,1,2 and horse gaps are like in go, the most used to spread your units and "domain" terrain. And like in go, players use to start using the biggest gap chains to just reinforce and reduce gaps when more enemy menace is showed near that position.
But I mostly use a chess approach to judge wesnoth moves. In chess there are 3 kinds of resources: Stuff (quality and number of your pieces), space (number and importance of squares you control) and time (number of turns you employed or must employ to achieve a goal). An advanced chess player knows that adventage in a game is a complex mix of that resources and they often do a sacrifice of a resourse to to win another one, like lose stuff to win time and space in early game. So I never think in the way units are more important than villages or anything like that. I think, like in chess, it always depends on every game current status. And I also use chess thinking formulas, like "give your units maximun activity", "keep them coordinated" or "think about your best oponent next turn answer for every movement" (I supose they also rule in go, but I just learned them in chess. I suck playing go
). And there is a final detail that in my opinion makes wesnoth more similar to chess than go: Wesnoth is a game of "check mate", go isn´t.
Anyway, a very interesting post, a like a lot discussions about different games shared strategics.
But I mostly use a chess approach to judge wesnoth moves. In chess there are 3 kinds of resources: Stuff (quality and number of your pieces), space (number and importance of squares you control) and time (number of turns you employed or must employ to achieve a goal). An advanced chess player knows that adventage in a game is a complex mix of that resources and they often do a sacrifice of a resourse to to win another one, like lose stuff to win time and space in early game. So I never think in the way units are more important than villages or anything like that. I think, like in chess, it always depends on every game current status. And I also use chess thinking formulas, like "give your units maximun activity", "keep them coordinated" or "think about your best oponent next turn answer for every movement" (I supose they also rule in go, but I just learned them in chess. I suck playing go
). And there is a final detail that in my opinion makes wesnoth more similar to chess than go: Wesnoth is a game of "check mate", go isn´t.Anyway, a very interesting post, a like a lot discussions about different games shared strategics.
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
World Conquest II
World Conquest II
Re: Ten strategies adapted from Go
what is go????????????/
Re: Ten strategies adapted from Go
oh nevermind ive played it and rock just didnt know the name but go varys alot for some of these rules are reversed
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Thrawn
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Re: Ten strategies adapted from Go
go's rules don't vary. The board size varies, and the scoring system at the end varies, but the rules do not.Josh327 wrote:oh nevermind ive played it and rock just didnt know the name but go varys alot for some of these rules are reversed
1. Black goes first
2. Can only play on intersections
3. When a stone or group of stones is surrounded on all intersection points, it is removed from the board
4. The game is over when both players pass
5. Ko rule: the board can not look the same 2 turns in a row. If there is a stone that can be captured, then immediately recaptured by the opponent, the opponent must play wait a turn before recapturing.
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott
this goes for they're/their/there as well
this goes for they're/their/there as well
Re: Ten strategies adapted from Go
IMO the rules drastically vary depending on your faction and units.
With drakes, offense is often much easier than defense.
With orcs, villages are often more important than units (grunts are cheap).
With dwarves it depends on what you have recruited, fighter and thunderer are more defensive, footpad/thief combo is more hit and run, and footpads are *very* good at village stealing, especially on a big map.
Similarly undead can be played like drakes or defensively, adepts are nasty at night and weak at day which makes for hit and run, and having no strong trait possible, they are usually quick. I have seen hit and run with ghosts flanking and bats village on larger maps. But harder to pull that off facing footpad-thief combo, often better to be more defensive.
Alternatively ghouls are a very nasty defensive unit, and skels may be very durable defensive units depending on what enemy has. But when facing footpad/thief combo, you may wish to be more aggressive than with adepts, skels/ghouls can survive the backstab counter attack much better.
With drakes, offense is often much easier than defense.
With orcs, villages are often more important than units (grunts are cheap).
With dwarves it depends on what you have recruited, fighter and thunderer are more defensive, footpad/thief combo is more hit and run, and footpads are *very* good at village stealing, especially on a big map.
Similarly undead can be played like drakes or defensively, adepts are nasty at night and weak at day which makes for hit and run, and having no strong trait possible, they are usually quick. I have seen hit and run with ghosts flanking and bats village on larger maps. But harder to pull that off facing footpad-thief combo, often better to be more defensive.
Alternatively ghouls are a very nasty defensive unit, and skels may be very durable defensive units depending on what enemy has. But when facing footpad/thief combo, you may wish to be more aggressive than with adepts, skels/ghouls can survive the backstab counter attack much better.