Drakes newbie

[tuahaa]

This is the first 'proper' game I've actually won by myself. He left the game, but I had a feeling I had already won (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm a newbie, and so were the other guys, but it was very fun. I'm learning how to play Drakes and I used to play as the Undead (although I wasn't much good).

Any tips and tricks on how to play better (doesn't have to be just drakes, it can be general strategies) would be appreciated.

[Just_end_turn]

If you just want to play better, Isar cross isn't really the best map.... But you still can learn many things there...

[Tonepoet]

Watching as I post:

On turn 4 I'm surprised you didn't lose anything with the Drakes there. It's generally not a wise idea to camp in villages more than halfway across the map early on because that's considered enemy territory, and a well equipped opponent should be able to swiftly deal with the problem at your loss. I see no good reason to attack the enemy leader with your skirmisher either. Not only was the Time of Day set out against doing such a thing but your opponent was theoretically more than capable of killing it swiftly and blocking out subsequent attacks while the leader went back to recruit and heal. Granted, your opponent wasn't able to do either of these things but this is only because his units hit below the usual par.

You followed through with this bit of luck quite nicely, sufficiently dismantling your opponent's troops to get at his leader before it could heal but I'd advise a lot more caution in the future. The number one bit of advise I could give is that it's generally a bad idea for units to do anything under the sole supervision of the enemy. Wesnoth is a game that's about group dynamics. Just because an individual unit can do something that seems beneficial at first, doesn't mean it should. Consider how differently things would've gone, had you lost that glider and that skirmisher. Your opponent could've afforded to hold back and maintain Zone of Control to heal because he'd have already been ahead by about 29 gold. (31 for killing both your glider and your skirmisher, then subtract only three for the single turn you denied him income, including upkeep.)

That's pretty much it. The game was pretty short and looked like it was decided by a hair really. I feel that you're right in your assessment that your position was favorable by game's end, as the Drakes controlled more of the map than the opponent and could've mobilized to gain even more quicker than the elves could've. However, without the earlier bit of luck which allowed you to kill off red, I'd say things would've been looking rather grim really, with the Blue leader dead 'n all.

Congratulations on your first win though; wesnoth's a tough game to get ahold of. If you keep on practicing observantly I'm sure you'll notice some patterns. You might want to play another map though, since Isar's Cross isn't really considered balanced in the traditional manner. Too small to play a fully developed game or grasp all of the nuances. I'd personally recommend playing Wendlyn Channel first, since the map's more clearly two-sided division makes for a more easily comprehendible game than most 1v1s, which usually have you considering the middle path too. Well wishes.

[tuahaa]

Thanks. I had the idea of using Saurian skirmishers as 'assassins', however as you pointed out, it wasn't the way to go during that time of day. I just won another game and this one was quite fun. This also had a bit of luck involved in it, but both my opponents did not realise that they had to move their leaders (mistake). Thanks for your feedback, I will try not to rely on luck next time

I tried to use my saurians as assassins again, but it was successful this time (and yes, I know, that burner was poorly used, but that guaranteed his death next turn)...

[tuahaa]

bump

I'm playing a few more games now and I'm getting better steadily

[tuahaa]

My last match was really fun. I had to leave, and I thought we might have won until those dark adepts came and butchered stuff in the last turn. As you said, I should start moving on to other types of maps

[Tonepoet]

For this game I see you withdrew from combat during a favorable ToD cycle in order to avoid poison damage. It's not normally a bad idea but on Cross, the close proximity makes combat very hard to avoid. Additionally Drakes vs. Undead is also a highly violent and fast paced match, meaning that the poison isn't as important of an effect since the relatively low damage yield won't have as much of a chance come into play so much to begin with. Especially since you had an Augur, which can be used to stave off the effects of poison, so long as it's standing next to the afflicted units.

While it might've worked better, I'm not entirely sure attacking Undead would've been wise in this case. Still with a 50% daytime advantage against them, I doubt they'd have risked going after you if you'd helped the Northerners violate the elven battlefront. This would've allowed them to take advantage of the Undead a lot better than you could've at night, since their alignment is on more favorable footing and you could've hired more drakes to better take advantage of the later daytime assault you were later so surprised to lose. So yeah, I think you need to work upon consideration of the factional lineups and team dynamics, in that order.

Also, in addition to changing the map, I'd also recommend switching factional modalities to one of what I'd consider the four "Normal Factions" (Rebels, Knalgans, Loyalists and Northerners) even if in the end you decide all you want to play is Drakes. Why? So you can get a feel for how the average player would want to form a defense, allowing you to better figure out counter strategies. Drakes really have a binary modality about territorial control (All out offensive or total recoil) where as most factions try to make formations which require standing ground. The same can go for Undead, but I'd advise against them since their defenses are highly focused upon resistance management, making their own defensive dynamic a little more complex than the average faction's.

[tuahaa]

I didn't want my lines overrun, but you're right: I should have helped orcs take out elves. I haven't ever played a 'normal' faction- I used to play undead and now I play drakes. I want to continue using drakes however, as I find them more 'interesting'... Anyway, I'll try play another game on a different map. Thanks for the feed back. It helped...

Thanks again

PS. Is there a way to use Saurian skirmishers effectively? They must have a use!

[Yoyobuae]

*snip* PS. Is there a way to use Saurian skirmishers effectively? They must have a use!

Yes, you just need use them for what they are really worth:

• chaotic aligment
• pierce resistance and good defense on non-flat terrain
• average melee pierce attack and semi-weak ranged pierce attack (still useful to retaliate though)
• cheap cost
• good speed and ease of movement thru nearly all terrain
• and finally skirmisher ability

All of the former makes skirmisher useful in some match-ups (foe example against Rebels, Loyalists) and that's their main use.

The skirmisher ability will only be useful in very specific situations. You should not abuse it, as frequently it would mean putting the skirmisher in a bad position which likely will get him killed. Skirmishers don't serve well as kamikaze units, don't do enough damage and their cost is still substantial compare to other factions unit cost.

[Caphriel]

Yes, against loyalists. Their pierce damage helps keep the loyalist cavalry under control, and their pierce resistance lets them fight the rest of the loyalist units more effectively. The drakes generally have to fight the loyalists at night, so saurian skirmishers and saurian augurs are essential. Against most I factions, I personally find them to be minimally useful at best, and used in small numbers for their skirmishing ability. They don't have enough damage output or durability for general fighting against other factions, in my opinion.

[Velensk]

They are essential against loyalists.

I find them to be useful against rebels (esp. if they use many archers) and they can be quite useful against knalgans.

A couple of them might not be a bad idea against northerners as long as you keep them on good terrain but money is generally better spent elsewhere. I generally would advice against using them against undead though one of them could help if you plant to counter attack as night is ending. Against drakes they occupy a similar position to the drake fighter (i.e. good but not as good as another unit with the same alignment.)

[Yoyobuae]

I tend to find them more useful in other match-ups as well. True, usually in smaller quantities than against loyalists.

I find them useful as melee units, any enemy ranged unit is a good target for them. At nights their a good alternative source of melee damage to replace lawful melee drakes (which do similar amounts of damage at this point).

Need to be very careful not to unnecesarilly put them in mortal danger. But being a low hp/high defense unit allows them to bounce back from damage more easily than drakes (they need to survive for that though). And being cheaper makes them better fodder if the situation calls for it.

I'd say they are not required in most match-ups, but they can provide a slight advantage over just using melee drakes instead on some cases.

[Tonepoet]

Ah I see, you lacked confidence because it seemed too far into their territory. It's important to consider that the enemy borders kinda breathe or flow like waves in Wesnoth and pendent on circumstance you'll optimally want to expand or contract. To keep things simple, you'll generally want to learn how to judge five factors when ascertaining an opponent's strength to see where their line falls: numbers, defensive values, time of day, head count and the respective reach of each side. In this case you not only had ToD advantage but your opponents were far too recessed to make any apt disruption to your forces if you helped in a proper manner. Additionally they didn't have enough reach to pool together, making individual team's head coun too low to pose much of an overall threat to your team's combined forces. You would've wanted to take caution of the enemy leader granted and units are rather tricky to remove from villages unless you overwhelm them in a single turn. Otherwise enemy territory was not much of a factor this time, because they set themselves up to have virtually none.

Skirmishers do have uses as listed above and can also provide Zone of Control where you normally couldn't have it, kill weakened units behind enemy lines serve as unobstructed scout-like sneaks for the more underpopulated areas of the map and are quite comparatively strong for holding swamps. However as a word of advice to you, I'd generally recommend against getting many in most cases. They're kinda low grade units for the faction and Drakes are pretty much forced to fight at a higher cost average per unit than the other factions, forcing one to utilize a whole quality vs. quantity dynamic.

Two very popular exceptions are Saurian Skirmishers the en masse Adept killer (which you can probably learn more about by watching the subversiva ladder replays, as I heard it was quite a popular tactic amongst them,) and Saurians the anti-loyalist pierce tank. With Saurians the anti-loyalist pierce tank, the goal is to block pierce damage with a combination of Saurians forcing the loyalists to diversify away from recruiting the three core piercing units of the faction: Spearmen, Bowmen and Horsemen. This gives your Drakes themselves a much easier time since they resist pretty much all of the other damage types, allowing them much higher than normal defensive yields. The proper rotation of Saurians and Drakes in this manner should allow them to enjoy mobility advantages, defensive advantages and a relentlessly favorable Time of Day while the poor commander of the far more inert Loyalist crew (usually meaning me >_>) is more or less left scrambling for the right units to combat the appropriate races with.

Anything else I have to say on Saurians that hasn't already been said involves the role they played with their past statistics, which for your intents and purposes are pretty much null and void, to say the least.

[Caphriel]

They're generally not a great investment against the undead, because as a drake player you usually don't want to be anywhere near the undead at night. A couple of them are good in a large enough army for slipping around to get a last couple stabs at a wounded adept or trapping retreating undead units, but dark adepts slaughter them just as well as they slaughter drakes, especially at night.

[tuahaa]

Thanks. I've been playing Weldyn Channel and I'll get a good replay when I play again next weekend. I've always relied on the skirmisher's abilities to dodge attacks but that's not very useful against mages (dark adepts in particular). Reading the last few comments- I think it would be better to employ the Saurian Skirmishers in those special cases only. Thanks again

~tuahaa