Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

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Devas
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Re: Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

Post by Devas » December 19th, 2009, 2:55 pm

Caphriel wrote:The units I see the undead leveling up the most are corpses and bats.
Maybe you should stop playing against 25 gold AI.

Velensk
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Re: Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

Post by Velensk » December 19th, 2009, 3:01 pm

That was both rude and presumptious.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Darkmage
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Re: Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

Post by Darkmage » December 19th, 2009, 6:08 pm

Indeed, if you know how to use corpses and bats they would become much useful, it is "fun" to see how in few turns starting with 3 corpses you get more and more, enought to survive daytime push ;) And bats, well quicker and cheaper than ghosts, good at village robbing.

PD. Also a level 1 bat is good for support and movility and a soulless with 3 hits probability of having more meatwall increases.

Radament
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Re: Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

Post by Radament » December 19th, 2009, 7:17 pm

csarmi wrote: I disagree, I consider ghosts not worth levelling: its levelups die just as fast. They are interesting units, but still die way too easily.
I see your point, but ''not worth levelling'' is kind of a harsh judgement. Many lvl2 units die easily in the hands of the proper counter. Drake Flamehearts will succumb to spearmen, Shock Troopers to adepts, Elder Woses to mages etc.

My logic would be: Ghosts & their leveled cousins are faster than their counters = They shouldn't be anywhere near them during the wrong ToD = Decent survivability

Killer595
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Re: Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

Post by Killer595 » December 21st, 2009, 1:47 am

ghosts are nice. they can come out of nowhere and finish a kill, and with that they level pretty fast if you're not stupid with them. and they obliterate ulfsarkers and drakes in their ToD. shadows are...wonderful. everyone always seems to level wraiths, and i really don't know why. vs drakes...sure. but who could say no to a unit that disappears in its ToD and does backstab? but then again, rogues are my favorite unit in the game... ok, enough about ghosts. i like them. they're good.
if a good move is made for bad reasons, is it still a good move?

Eskon
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Re: Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

Post by Eskon » December 21st, 2009, 11:30 am

I can only speak for myself - the reason why I'll usually level a wraith if given the opportunity is not that the wraith is the overall "better" unit or anything - the two units are extremely different in the things they can and cannot do, in fact. The thing is, 21 XP needed is still 21 XP needed. Usually if a ghost survives this long then it was doing a good job, whatever that job had been. And about the only jobs besides scouting a ghost can do well is ulf killing and tanking in cases in which the enemy does not have counters ready. However, ghost tanking power depends almost entirely on drain. Sure, even without drain it's a 36 adjusted HP unit versus the physical damage types and they do get 50% defense off grassland, but they also only get 50% from villages or mountains. But the main reason why ghosts tend to annoy their enemies to no end is that you often can't reliably get rid of them with melee units even if you concentrate your power. Ghosts that withstand their enemy in this manner are also the ghosts that accumulate XP more quickly, and tend to level more easily.

The thing is, for enemies that had trouble with ghosts, wraiths are terrifying. They are Ghosts Deluxe(tm). Whatever the ghost was doing to achieve 21 XP, this unit can do that and more.

Shadows, on the other hand, are complete rubbish at tanking. Sure, they are still hard to dislodge for enemies lacking their counters, but they are also now worth 16 XP and thus worth making an effort to kill. And contrary to the ghost, melee units can hack away at the shadow and whittle it down in this manner. I've experienced situations in which a ghost was kicking butt, and the leveled shadow died seconds later.

That said, it is absolutely true that the shadow's abilities are also completely unique to the shadow, and abilities previously unavailable to the undead, so if there are no incentives in the current situation that happen to make the wraith a wonderful unit, I think I'd end up taking the shadow in a "serious" match, though in casual games I'll take wraiths for simplicity alone.

Velensk
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Re: Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

Post by Velensk » December 21st, 2009, 2:08 pm

Depends on the enemy for me. I usually prefer to get wraiths vs fighter heavy drakes, northerners, knalgans and rebels who recruit more woses than mages and shadows against the others.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Caphriel
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Re: Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

Post by Caphriel » December 21st, 2009, 2:59 pm

Devas wrote:
Caphriel wrote:The units I see the undead leveling up the most are corpses and bats.
Maybe you should stop playing against 25 gold AI.
As it happens, I don't play against the AI except for giggles, which I've done once in the last few months. I spend a lot of time, however, watching the games of top ranked ladder players and other people I recognize as good players.

Radament, the problem with ghosts is that even at the wrong time of day, their counters can cream them. Especially mages, which negate the 50% dodge and the resistances. If you try to level a ghost, you're still at risk of the enemy sacrificing a mage to kill it at night.

Greep
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Re: Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

Post by Greep » December 21st, 2009, 6:09 pm

Caphriel wrote:
Devas wrote: Maybe you should stop playing against 25 gold AI.
As it happens, I don't play against the AI except for giggles, which I've done once in the last few months. I spend a lot of time, however, watching the games of top ranked ladder players and other people I recognize as good players.

Radament, the problem with ghosts is that even at the wrong time of day, their counters can cream them. Especially mages, which negate the 50% dodge and the resistances. If you try to level a ghost, you're still at risk of the enemy sacrificing a mage to kill it at night.
Still a wraith at night used well is pretty insane. But yeah, ghosts might be underpowered just because giving the undead solid mobility, 16 gold mages, and foot soldiers only knalgans have an easy time with is a bit much.

Yoyobuae
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Re: Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

Post by Yoyobuae » December 21st, 2009, 6:15 pm

Dealing with ghosts is weird. Their wacky resistances and low HP is deceptive.

One interesting thing that I have noticed recently is that ghost's positive resistances (specially 50% ones) mean that damages ending in .5 are always rounded up. Add to this fact that ghost is a low hp unit, which makes each point of damage count.

For example, a Poacher with nightime bonus does 5-4. With ghost's 50% pierce resistance thats 2.5, which rounds up to 3-4 damage. Rounding just magically reduced pierce resistance to 40%, a big difference for such low HP unit.

Saurian skirmishers are quite similar, even better since they resist arcane damage plus can get good defense. They'll probably make good shields against ghosts (if undead player is recruits them at all). I wish I knew when I faced a ghost/adept spammer some time back.

Radament
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Re: Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

Post by Radament » December 21st, 2009, 10:47 pm

Caphriel wrote: Radament, the problem with ghosts is that even at the wrong time of day, their counters can cream them. Especially mages, which negate the 50% dodge and the resistances. If you try to level a ghost, you're still at risk of the enemy sacrificing a mage to kill it at night.
If I'm not mistaken a single mage is not enough for that. Personally, I'll gladly trade the xp-fed ghost for a mage + a random unit, which you chop up with your other forces and (ideally) let them continue their careers as zombies :P
A lost mage usually seriously cripples any Loyalist attempts to counterattack at daytime, while you still retain 90% of your damage output. And from my experience, lost initiative at your favorable ToD will usually bring you down in Loy vs. UD matches.

Rebels are different though, as they have other counters against ghosts (besides archers I'm a big fan of slowing ghosts and letting them sit there on their expensive asses, doing close to no damage)

silent
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Re: Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

Post by silent » December 22nd, 2009, 4:29 am

Radament wrote:
Caphriel wrote: Radament, the problem with ghosts is that even at the wrong time of day, their counters can cream them. Especially mages, which negate the 50% dodge and the resistances. If you try to level a ghost, you're still at risk of the enemy sacrificing a mage to kill it at night.
If I'm not mistaken a single mage is not enough for that. Personally, I'll gladly trade the xp-fed ghost for a mage + a random unit, which you chop up with your other forces and (ideally) let them continue their careers as zombies :P
A lost mage usually seriously cripples any Loyalist attempts to counterattack at daytime, while you still retain 90% of your damage output. And from my experience, lost initiative at your favorable ToD will usually bring you down in Loy vs. UD matches.

Rebels are different though, as they have other counters against ghosts (besides archers I'm a big fan of slowing ghosts and letting them sit there on their expensive asses, doing close to no damage)
You are mistaken radament. at dusk/dawn or day, a ghost is normally likely to be easily removed by a mage. a mage does to a ghost 6-3 at dusk/dawn, and 8-3 at day. Particularly the dawn/dusk scenario is infuriating, because (ignoring weapon specials which modify attack), few units are so easily felled before their preferred ToD, or the opponents ToD.

Also, normally a loyalist assault will contain at least 2 mages if they are serious about pressing and claiming a village at day (for this matchup at least), and you're giving up at least 2 units to kill a mage, with a rather low CTK I imagine, for any resilient mage. And your scenario doesn't take into account the accompanying troops either.

Yoyobuae also makes an interesting point about the ghost resistances too. I wonder if that is deliberate or accidental that which causes the ghost to have a poacher with 5-4 attack at night for 3-4? Perhaps the resistances of the ghost need to be slightly modified? or was that intended for balance? I don't actually know.

As for leveling ghosts, almost never happens to me, and on the one occasion I can remember leveling one, it became a wraith for the sole purpose of continuing to infuriate with drain.

Radament
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Re: Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

Post by Radament » December 22nd, 2009, 1:20 pm

silent wrote: You are mistaken radament. at dusk/dawn or day, a ghost is normally likely to be easily removed by a mage. a mage does to a ghost 6-3 at dusk/dawn, and 8-3 at day. Particularly the dawn/dusk scenario is infuriating, because (ignoring weapon specials which modify attack), few units are so easily felled before their preferred ToD, or the opponents ToD.

Also, normally a loyalist assault will contain at least 2 mages if they are serious about pressing and claiming a village at day (for this matchup at least), and you're giving up at least 2 units to kill a mage, with a rather low CTK I imagine, for any resilient mage. And your scenario doesn't take into account the accompanying troops either.

Yoyobuae also makes an interesting point about the ghost resistances too. I wonder if that is deliberate or accidental that which causes the ghost to have a poacher with 5-4 attack at night for 3-4? Perhaps the resistances of the ghost need to be slightly modified? or was that intended for balance? I don't actually know.

As for leveling ghosts, almost never happens to me, and on the one occasion I can remember leveling one, it became a wraith for the sole purpose of continuing to infuriate with drain.
Caphriel meant attacking the ghost at night, not dusk or dawn. Won't work with a single mage.

Caphriel
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Re: Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

Post by Caphriel » December 22nd, 2009, 8:00 pm

Actually, I meant any time other than day. And while a single mage may not do it against a full health ghost, a woundest ghost might fall, and a mage with help can kill a full-hp ghost at night. Whether or not it's worth doing is situational, but it is always possible, which was my point.

donkey_noob_trash1
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Re: Why people consider undead to be underpowered?

Post by donkey_noob_trash1 » December 24th, 2009, 12:47 am

Dude wrote:I started playing Wesnoth a month ago, and i have noticed that people tend to consider undead players as noobs. Maybe is because the undead faction is considered underpowered?

I have only played about 20 games or so (won about half the time), but really, the only time i had trouble was against Rebels, simply because the woses are too strong.
Against other factions it was rather easy:


PD: I only played at isar's cross
So, in all the wisdom you have accrued in your 20 games of Isar's, you are here to tell us that the undead faction actually kicks ass...

Or... something...

Most of the players that I play with (who are very good) would say that the UD faction is probably the strongest faction, at night that is. Only problem is how incredibly slow they are. Fastest unit is the bat, with an awe-inspiring 17HP on average.

For Isar's, though, I can see why you might like the UD. It's just one big orgy of combat, starting from about turn 3.
"Oh noes, I'm trapped by corporeal beings!" -Caphriel (in a discussion about ghosts and ZoC)

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