Factional jack or specialist?

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siowy
Posts: 29
Joined: April 18th, 2008, 10:12 am

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by siowy »

my idea of showing your 'random' choice and making it changeable, combined with hiding player races/leaders pre-game would satisfy all these people.

those who are lazy to decide, want variety/challenge, can pick random. if they don't like it, they can random again, or choose.

those who have a preference, choose what they want.

in no way is either type of player disadvantaged, while it encourages variety and flexibility because neither player can recruit specifically against any race.

the only logical opposition to this idea, as i can imagine, would be programmers, and long-time players who regard the current 'random' system as fixed and cultural.

i believe that our current 'random' system is central to wesnoth. however, a good game developer knows when something should be changed to make progress, even if it's embedded in wesnoth culture and history. this is one of those changes worth making.

it's only up to programmers/developers to decide if they care about/want to change it.
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Yoyobuae
Posts: 408
Joined: July 24th, 2009, 8:38 pm

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Yoyobuae »

siowy wrote:*snip*
the only logical opposition to this idea, as i can imagine, would be programmers, and long-time players who regard the current 'random' system as fixed and cultural.
*snip*
Precisely. The only players I'm seeing defending random, are the ones that prefer that choice.

That's why I dropped out of the discussion, I find it hard to believe them when they're just defending their own preference.
Eskon
Posts: 184
Joined: August 12th, 2008, 2:21 pm
Location: Esslingen, Germany

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Eskon »

Which part don't you believe in? That we don't really think having Random in the game is good, and are only disagreeing with you because we don't like how your nose looks on your face?

I think the "hidden selection" method you propose wouldn't create an imbalance, and would eliminate the "Random" tradeoff quite handily, just as removing Random would, but keep the need for balanced initial recruits around, while retaining the ability to cherry-pick leaders. The thing is, that change would only constitute an improvement if there were an imbalance to fix in the first place, which I am not convinced is the case. The reason I would not like this change instituted is that I think the current philosophy - "If you go through the effort to learn all six factions and all 21 matchups, you are rewarded with one additional viable choice" - appeals to me (and I am neither a programmer nor a long-time player on the Wesnoth scale, though I do admit that I am one of the heathens who like Random).
Yoyobuae
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Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Yoyobuae »

I don't believe that you can have an unbiased opinion if all you play is random. Simple as that.
Eskon
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Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Eskon »

Ooh, it's that simple? Then I believe you are a doodoo head.
Yoyobuae
Posts: 408
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Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Yoyobuae »

It's ok. We can all believe whatever we want.
Eskon
Posts: 184
Joined: August 12th, 2008, 2:21 pm
Location: Esslingen, Germany

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Eskon »

Do you think, then, that it's wise to enter a discussion to begin with if you are not going to listen to the other side anyway because it isn't yours?

(I do not actually believe you are a doodoo head.)
Yoyobuae
Posts: 408
Joined: July 24th, 2009, 8:38 pm

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Yoyobuae »

Actually, the discussion served it's purpose well enough. People posted their opinions, I read them, drew my own conclusions.

Had I not participated, there wouldn't be as much interesting information here. How I take that information is entirely my decision, though.
psychic
Posts: 86
Joined: July 30th, 2009, 10:18 pm

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by psychic »

Megaprimetron wrote:If you believe that an orc slayer leader and a death blade leader are on equal ground, and that building 2 augurs at the start works just as well on undead as it does in a drake mirror, then i got nothin' to work with. There is no way i can explain my logic in a way you can understand while we are in a different realities.
This is getting irritating, you neither give out a sound argument from your side nor stop telling wrong facts to win the argument.
If you believe that an orc slayer leader and a death blade leader are on equal ground
Both of them start on equal ground at their respective keeps :P
Jokes apart, if you tell something like the above statement, you should give evidence to show why they are not equal in the overall picture. To make it clear so that you dont misunderstand (and twist facts), overall means an analysis made by considering the whole faction and against all matchups.
and that building 2 augurs at the start works just as well on undead as it does in a drake mirror, then i got nothin' to work with.
Classic example of twisting facts, if you can prove that i said 2 augurs will be recruited in my initial recruit all the times, i will QUIT wesnoth.
Last edited by psychic on February 9th, 2010, 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Velensk
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Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Velensk »

Yoyobuae wrote:I don't believe that you can have an unbiased opinion if all you play is random. Simple as that.
Though I don't see why this is at all relevant to the rest of anything.

Aside from the fact that even I don't always play random, it seems to me that it would be just as true to say that 'it is impossible to have an unbiased opinion if you only ever play one faction' and just as non-relevant.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
Yoyobuae
Posts: 408
Joined: July 24th, 2009, 8:38 pm

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Yoyobuae »

But I'm not trying to convince anyone, nor support any specific point. Just look at my last few posts, I've mostly asked questions or stated my own beliefs and opinion.
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Megaprimetron
Posts: 20
Joined: January 12th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Megaprimetron »

I believe that there is an easy fix, why not just hide leaders (not just random ones)

I have attempted to do this with an era, but it seems impossible to hide the leader and fraction from the other players without also hiding them from the chooser.... does anyone know how long it might take to set the game up in such a way that all players see a big (?) instead of the chosen leader/fraction?

People who currently believe random is unfair could no longer complain about not being able to pick the leaders and fractions they want without a disadvantage, and people who believe that there is no random advantage can't complain. If random starts looking bad, it'll be simple enough to tweak the leaders random selects from to avoid the most common gimps.

The only obstacle would be how much game coding you'd have to scramble to do it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
psychic wrote:Both of them start on equal ground at their respective keeps :P
Jokes apart, if you tell something like the above statement, you should give evidence to show why they are not equal in the overall picture.
That's a problem. I could give the exact number of hits it takes for a death-blade to kill a slayer at any given time of day, give the odds of a one round kill on any terrain type the slayer may be standing on, go though the undead units one by one and show with charts how and why each and every single one of the creatures on the undead recruit list is ether practically immune to, or a great threat to a slayer and how that makes him less useful in this match up. I could also map the village to village moves of all one vs one scenarios, and prove that 2 augers are optimal in a drake vs drake match-up, both for village gathering and battle. Then give damage and hit chance values to show how the same 2 augers will be utterly ineffective in combat with almost any given undead army.

Or I could forgo that in favor of writing to someone who hasn't picked me out to be a debate rival. You stopped trying to convince me of anything along time ago.
Last edited by Megaprimetron on February 9th, 2010, 2:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Eskon
Posts: 184
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Location: Esslingen, Germany

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Eskon »

@ psychic: The advantage associated with choosing Random is that the opponent of the Random player is restricted in his choice of recruits. This is not about the ability to field a balanced initial recruit against a Random player - I agree that these should be possible. Knowing the opponent's faction makes recruit choices possible that are risky against a Random opponent. It's not about units becoming completely useless either - no unit can ever become completely useless.

The most clear-cut example to me is the assassin. He is useful in the village grab being the only guaranteed six move Northerner unit, and more or less worth his gold against any faction except undead. Assassins are not completely useless against undead, but they don't come close to recouping their 17 gold cost considering that the only unit they are really useful against is bats, and that they are poorly suited to combating adepts, skeletons of any sort and ghouls, the main undead forces. Similar to this, adepts are not very good against undead (4 HP heal and 6-2 melee against skeleton archers at night fail to convince me), and similarly likely to be a poor initial recruit. You can't initially recruit woses either because of how heavily they lose to drakes, or mages (again: drakes).

The list goes on and on (and for once I trust you to be able to complete it in your mind instead of demanding that others do the thinking for you). This doesn't make initial recruits infeasible to do against Random; every faction has units left in their roster that can be expected to recoup their cost against every faction, if used correctly. But it remains an advantage to the Random player. While against a known faction they can get a rough image in mind of the opponent's likely initial recruit choices, the non-Random player is forced to expect anything and everything. This is not the kind of advantage that will win a game alone, just like being able to move first does not automatically confer the victory to player 1. But it is an advantage.

It is balanced by the disadvantage of not being able to choose the leader. I or Megaprimetron should not have to explain this, first because I already did (read that one post again) and second because it is bleeding obvious: Leaders are different. Just compare the Poacher to any of the quick dwarves, which are more powerful in nearly every respect and faster too if you take terrain into account. Compare Lieutenant to the five-move loyalist leaders. Compare the highly counterable bone shooter to the destructive and much sturdier Dark Sorcerer. Take the Fire Drake and Red Mage, which both suck against Drakes, or orcish slayer, who sucks against undead.



There. Arguments. Reasoning. Hope you approve.
siowy
Posts: 29
Joined: April 18th, 2008, 10:12 am

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by siowy »

megaprimeton: i'm glad you support my idea of hiding races/leaders

eskon: you are clear and correct in your arguments. i agree that it is not a clear imbalance between picking or randoming. but i feel that the two choices should give equal results going into the game, for reasons i discussed in my previous post.
i play as foreverfighter on official server and ladder
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Megaprimetron
Posts: 20
Joined: January 12th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Megaprimetron »

I actually believe that random has an advantage over hand picks. Random leaders come with a disadvantage (yes, it is as much a fact as "elf fighter has 4 strikes"), but i don't think it's as harsh as the advantage they get.

Hi siowy, sorry i didn't acknowledge you before.

Do you think that hidden leaders should be revealed before battle or when scouted? I kinda like the idea of having to scout your opponent to know exactly what fraction and leader you are up against, just not as much when one player already knows :P.
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