Factional jack or specialist?

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siowy
Posts: 29
Joined: April 18th, 2008, 10:12 am

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by siowy » February 9th, 2010, 4:17 pm

Do you think that hidden leaders should be revealed before battle or when scouted?
i have the opinion of only one person, and this is regarding an issue that is far from settled, but i think that they should be scouted to find the opponent's race. that's fun and realistic(in a fantasy-setting) to me.
i play as foreverfighter on official server and ladder

psychic
Posts: 86
Joined: July 30th, 2009, 10:18 pm

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by psychic » February 9th, 2010, 4:18 pm

@ Eskon good to know you are willing to argue with some facts and logic.
Now i truly understand what you mean, it is possible to recruit a risky initial recruit which might not be possible against a random opponent. Think about it from this angle - most(infact i am not readily able to come up with an exception) of the time atleast in my case the initial recruits are chosen to optimise village gathering and withstand/defend/be of use whatever be the enemy units, so i end up having same initial recruits even if i know the opposition. May be i have found good initial recruits for all factions XD
So i guess it comes down to players/play style.

With respect to an assasin against ud i have time and again told that they are the only units that can reliably kill a bat. Have you ever played matches where the opponent uses a lot of bats or you take a swing at a 2 hp unit with grunts and failing to kill them?
one augur is definite not a waste against ud, read the thread on initial drake recruits vs random, there is a discussion on that, one important point you are missing is their speed, which is the most effective weapon against the traitless ud.

Ofcourse leaders are different. The most enjoyable thing about different leaders is that we need to develop different strategies to use them effectively. Although i cannot type out all the different strategies for different leaders the basic idea is that when you get a melee leader you compensate by getting more ranged units and similar(in this case similar corresponds to a ton of different strategies) stuff for other leaders. This is why i keep saying no leader is at a disadvantage against another faction. Even now if you can tell me a matchup where you feel you got the most disadvantaged leader, i can let you know a strategy in which he becomes a strength :)

@ Megaprimetron I am not that happy in continuing argument with you though. If you are going to argue about how a slayer will suck against a deathblade head on, you have to go read more basic material. Wesnoth does not work in the above said fashion and any war for that matter, it is like stating Hitler and Churchill come to the middle of the battlefield and hit each other :D

I said...
Classic example of twisting facts, if you can prove that i said 2 augurs will be recruited in my initial recruit all the times, i will QUIT wesnoth.
Your reply...
I could also map the village to village moves of all one vs one scenarios, and prove that 2 augers are optimal in a drake vs drake match-up, both for village gathering and battle. Then give damage and hit chance values to show how the same 2 augers will be utterly ineffective in combat with almost any given undead army.
I absolutely have no idea how your reply answers my question

Finally you also say
Or I could forgo that in favor of writing to someone who hasn't picked me out to be a debate rival. You stopped trying to convince me of anything along time ago.
It was absolutely stupid of me to pick an argument with a noob. A good lesson learnt and there will be no further replies to you.

TheHouseJackBuilt
Posts: 23
Joined: January 31st, 2010, 11:42 am

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by TheHouseJackBuilt » February 9th, 2010, 4:20 pm

siowy wrote:my idea of showing your 'random' choice and making it changeable, combined with hiding player races/leaders pre-game would satisfy all these people.

those who are lazy to decide, want variety/challenge, can pick random. if they don't like it, they can random again, or choose.

those who have a preference, choose what they want.

in no way is either type of player disadvantaged, while it encourages variety and flexibility because neither player can recruit specifically against any race.

the only logical opposition to this idea, as i can imagine, would be programmers, and long-time players who regard the current 'random' system as fixed and cultural.

i believe that our current 'random' system is central to wesnoth. however, a good game developer knows when something should be changed to make progress, even if it's embedded in wesnoth culture and history. this is one of those changes worth making.

it's only up to programmers/developers to decide if they care about/want to change it.
I dont see how this would solve anything.

First you are taking the "random" player advantage away by hiding the "specialist" faction/race while the specialist keeps his advantage (choose his leader/race)

Then the "random" player has the choice to either accept the random race/leader or reroll which is preety much choosing his leader/race or just choose his leader/race manually. So the "random" player either loses both advantages of choosing or seeing the enemy or he just gets the advantage of chosing his leader race.

Which in practice, if i m right, would be the same if we kept the current system but hide both players choices regardless of whether they go random or pick.

Yoyobuae
Posts: 408
Joined: July 24th, 2009, 8:38 pm

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Yoyobuae » February 9th, 2010, 4:24 pm

I personally like the speedy Drake Warrior leader and he is my standard leader choice. But I'd gladly forfeit the ability to make that choice, if the random advantage disappears also.

Say, for example, hide all faction choices, but allow only random leaders. And more interestingly, this is perfectly doable with an era.

Caphriel
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Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Caphriel » February 9th, 2010, 4:51 pm

Eskon wrote:Take the Fire Drake and Red Mage, which both suck against Drakes
I have absolutely no interesting in getting involved with the overall discussion, but the Red Mage is a pretty good leader for the Loyalists to have against drakes. Neutral magical fire damage makes it an excellent counter to saurians (65% chance to kill most trait combos outright), and its presence can easily frustrate Drake nighttime offensives, especially in the early game.

siowy
Posts: 29
Joined: April 18th, 2008, 10:12 am

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by siowy » February 9th, 2010, 4:54 pm

TheHouseJackBuilt wrote:
siowy wrote:my idea of showing your 'random' choice and making it changeable, combined with hiding player races/leaders pre-game would satisfy all these people.

those who are lazy to decide, want variety/challenge, can pick random. if they don't like it, they can random again, or choose.

those who have a preference, choose what they want.

in no way is either type of player disadvantaged, while it encourages variety and flexibility because neither player can recruit specifically against any race.

the only logical opposition to this idea, as i can imagine, would be programmers, and long-time players who regard the current 'random' system as fixed and cultural.

i believe that our current 'random' system is central to wesnoth. however, a good game developer knows when something should be changed to make progress, even if it's embedded in wesnoth culture and history. this is one of those changes worth making.

it's only up to programmers/developers to decide if they care about/want to change it.
I dont see how this would solve anything.

First you are taking the "random" player advantage away by hiding the "specialist" faction/race while the specialist keeps his advantage (choose his leader/race)

Then the "random" player has the choice to either accept the random race/leader or reroll which is preety much choosing his leader/race or just choose his leader/race manually. So the "random" player either loses both advantages of choosing or seeing the enemy or he just gets the advantage of chosing his leader race.

Which in practice, if i m right, would be the same if we kept the current system but hide both players choices regardless of whether they go random or pick.
yes my idea takes away random player advantage, and also hero choosing advantage(since players who random race can still choose their leader if they want, or choose to keep a less favourable leader for a challenge).

i have thought about just hiding player choices. i anticipate that the group of people who used to random because they were lazy to pick would lose that option and be unhappy about possibly getting a less favourable leader or a race they don't feel like playing if they randomed.

by allowing random race/leader to be re-picked or re-randomed, players who don't know what to play or are lazy to pick can re-random until they like what comes up, or they can random a race and pick their preferred leader.

i hope this helps you understand my point of view.
i play as foreverfighter on official server and ladder

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Megaprimetron
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Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Megaprimetron » February 9th, 2010, 5:17 pm

Which in practice, if i m right, would be the same if we kept the current system but hide both players choices regardless of whether they go random or pick.
That's pretty much all i think should be done, it's dangerous to make big changes, and i don't like the idea of a re-randomizer, it takes all the excitement out.

psychic wrote:Eskon good to know you are willing to argue....


(about me).....It was absolutely stupid of me to pick an argument with a noob. A good lesson learnt and there will be no further replies to you.
Eskon, just want to make it super obvious what his intent is, he's not going to accept anything you don't prove. And he will use anything you can't to discredit your conclusions. You've left the realm of causal communication, and entered an argument with psychic.

It's Dangerous to go alone! take this.
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TheHouseJackBuilt
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Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by TheHouseJackBuilt » February 9th, 2010, 6:03 pm

i have thought about just hiding player choices. i anticipate that the group of people who used to random because they were lazy to pick would lose that option and be unhappy about possibly getting a less favourable leader or a race they don't feel like playing if they randomed.
I dont belong in either of those groups of "randomists" :P

yes my idea takes away random player advantage, and also hero choosing advantage(since players who random race can still choose their leader if they want, or choose to keep a less favourable leader for a challenge).
This idea alone will boost the random choice so if implemented it will have to be with the rest of the package.

by allowing random race/leader to be re-picked or re-randomed, players who don't know what to play or are lazy to pick can re-random until they like what comes up, or they can random a race and pick their preferred leader.
And my disagreement with the package comes here. I dont pick random because i m lazy or undecided i pick random because i want random.As a "randomist" i have three options:
1. Take the first choice that rolls which will put me in obvious disadvantage (i lose the random advantage while the other player maintains his even if its just for the race, not the leader)

2. Keep rerolling until i get my preffered faction which is chosing

3. Chose my faction
i hope this helps you understand my point of view.
[/quote]

I think i understand ur point of view i just disagree with it and dont see how the solution u are proposing will fix it without making the "random" choice a disadvantage.


Megaprimetron wrote:
That's pretty much all i think should be done, it's dangerous to make big changes, and i don't like the idea of a re-randomizer, it takes all the excitement out.
That would put the player who goes random at a very big disadvantage over the other choices.

siowy
Posts: 29
Joined: April 18th, 2008, 10:12 am

Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by siowy » February 9th, 2010, 11:12 pm

yes. randoming is a disadvantage after my idea.

but it is only a disadvantage relative to what it is now, which supports the fact that people feel they gain advantage from going random. which i think shouldn't be the case.

my idea only equalizes random and choosing instead of giving each different advantages and disadvantages.

a good specialist needs to know how to play all the other races too, as pointed out over the years by many wesnoth forum-ers. by learning to play all the races, players gain the advantage of learning how their enemy would think while moving and recruiting and why. that, in itself, is enough advantage for learning all the races. i don't think any more advantage is needed.
i play as foreverfighter on official server and ladder

Euthanatos93
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Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Euthanatos93 » February 9th, 2010, 11:31 pm

PvP I go random for the advantage and the experience.

PvAI (survivals) I pick the faction based on my knowledge of the map itslef. e.g. SOMEONE has to have a healer in the middle and I hate people going random because drakes suck at this map. Otherwise I'll go undead or dwarves.

TheHouseJackBuilt
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Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by TheHouseJackBuilt » February 10th, 2010, 3:11 am

siowy wrote: a good specialist needs to know how to play all the other races too, as pointed out over the years by many wesnoth forum-ers. by learning to play all the races, players gain the advantage of learning how their enemy would think while moving and recruiting and why. that, in itself, is enough advantage for learning all the races. i don't think any more advantage is needed.
When i said "specialist" i wasnt refering to people who only learn one faction but to people who chose their faction. Its not the same.

As for the advantage itself which doesnt comes exclusively from the random or chose option it also has disadvantages. Player A plays 200 games. If he plays equally with each race he will get a better insight of all the races and will learn how to counter them more effectively. If the same guy plays 190 of his 200 games with lets say Orcs then its safe to say that he plays better with Orcs compared to how the same player would play with Orcs if he was playing with all factions with the same amount of games so he also has an advantage which he can use.

Just because a player choses his faction it doesnt necessary means that he will chose the same faction each time. It doesnt mean that he is restricted to not chosing any other faction never or prevents him from choosing some of the other factions from time to time to get a bit insight on how to counter them with his favourite faction. It doesnt exclude him from playing (almost) equally with all factions since he can chose them.

Just because a player goes random it doesnt mean that he plays 100% as good with any faction.

yes. randoming is a disadvantage after my idea.

but it is only a disadvantage relative to what it is now, which supports the fact that people feel they gain advantage from going random. which i think shouldn't be the case.
As it is now there are advantages and disadvantages on both chosing and going random.

Also the "chosing" players really underestimate the effect of rolling a faction that i am not as good at as the others. If i roll orcs then i guarantee u that whatever advantage i get from seeing ur leader/faction is lost compared to the advantage i would get if i chose loyalists. And the chosing player will not notice this disadvantage i will get because he doesnt know whether i play better,equal or worse with other races.

Ofcourse there are players who play "almost" as good with any faction. But on the other hand if we had two identical people who played the same amount of games one randoming and one specialising in Orcs then the specialiser will be a better player with Orcs. And he can chose them and get an advantage. Which will be "countered" by the fact that the random player can see that the other guy picked orcs. Whether that counter is enough it depends.

Random isnt always an advantage.

my idea only equalizes random and choosing instead of giving each different advantages and disadvantages.
Imho it doesnt. It rather makes the random option a handicap for the reasons i said in both this post and my previous ones.

siowy
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Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by siowy » February 10th, 2010, 8:02 am

thehousejackbuilt: read my posts again. you don't seem to understand.
i play as foreverfighter on official server and ladder

IK_German
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Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by IK_German » May 18th, 2012, 6:58 pm

TheHouseJackBuilt wrote: Random isn't always an advantage.
That's only true for specialists that play the same faction and the same maps every time, so they have a standard opening which can be adjusted to any enemy's faction in 1 or 2 turns. (Yes, I read and I understood your explanation. :) )

The crucial fact here is the same or at least a few well-known maps, while most randomists constantly vary the maps or join whatever game available. Of course you have a great advantage by choosing the complete set-up - like a studied opening in chess that can decide the outcome of the whole game. A randomist has to deal with 2 disadvantages while a specialist already dealt with his one by using a prepared and adjustable allround-strategy. (Comparable to: "Oh a ghost, I need 2 thunderers." vs "Oh, I hate those ghosts! Hm, I should use a ranged attack, arcane or fire, if possible, and if I get it to yellow or red, I can just use a melee to finish it off. Let's see, what we have...")

In any other situations the random choice grants yourself an edge in knowledge that can win you the game - if you can use it well. If you play with brain, you do well with every faction - just slower. :P

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LittleCaesar
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Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by LittleCaesar » April 5th, 2014, 3:27 am

I'm in the funny position where I never choose random because I'm not good at all factions but entering a game I think the randomise has an advantage, because I don't know what to train.

Faction choosing, recruitment, gameplay, they are all influenced by a variety of factors, including personal preferences and strengths and as well as tactical match ups. The point of a strategy game is figuring out which mix of these factors will win you the game. Is a mystery set up better than relying on my skill at a mobile elvish game? Do I want a fighter or a shaman? Trade off, trade off, trade off.
"Without a goal [maneuvering is] aimless. You might be a master tactician, but you’ll have no sense of strategy." Garry Kasparov

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Velensk
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Re: Factional jack or specialist?

Post by Velensk » April 5th, 2014, 11:02 am

To me, that kind of thinking feels more applicable to Starcraft or a different game to me.

In many games you train yourself to develop the immediate reaction and gamesense that allows you to make a good decision on a split seconds notice. In such a game you frequently don't have to make the best decision as long as you can make a good one quickly and not let it interrupt you in the execution.

In Wesnoth, that's not really what you're training for. What you're looking for is a deeper level of understanding on the application of the principles of the game and the intuition to determine what the results of various actions are likely to be. The knowledge of the principles will allow you to both create situations where your odds are better and to deal with the uncertainty with greater room for misfortune. As a result 'skill' has a very different definition. When you play it's not that you'll do a 'skillful' grunt rush or that the time and effort you've put into playing rebels will let you coax extra efficiency out of them that any other skilled Wesnoth player wouldn't. This although, a grunt rush may be the gambit you choose and making most efficient use of your units is a great deal of what the game is about. Instead, your skill will improve your odds of making the best choices no matter what circumstance you are in. Although you are 'doing a grunt rush' or something similar ultimately it'll all break down to playing Wesnoth which means making decisions like "do I assault the village with my five grunts despite the fact that he's got a guardsman a leader and a couple poachers guarding it" or "Now that I've broken him do I continue to make just grunts" and the way you make these decisions are actually based on the same kind of reasoning as all the rest of the strategy. You could abstract this down to "what combination of factors" if you like but I think you'll find that trying to apply it the same way it works in other games may not help you.

Ultimately, I think you'll find that if you just focus on making yourself a strong Wesnoth player (and I believe many people will learn the game fastest when they branch out) then you'll find that the real "combination of factors" has a lot less to do with faction (or even unit choices) than you may think. Even for factions with a distinct playstyle, when it comes down to it, are based on the same fundamental skills as every other because no playstyle requires an actual new set of skills. Now you do have to take a bit of time to learn the specifics and the match-ups of each faction but once you do there's not much more that focusing on them can teach you that playing another wouldn't. Despite this, the skill ceiling for Wesnoth is quite a bit higher than most people realize.
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