Colosseum - first round buy discussion

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norbert
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Re: Colosseum - first round buy discussion

Post by norbert » September 10th, 2009, 12:28 am

More or less on-topic: today, I made it until wave 7 (second to last) on Pro difficulty, using the standard map settings, with 1 unit. 8) A Ghost... There were many near-death experiences and I died at turn 126 while having 750+ max health. There is a replay available. I've never gotten this far, even though I've tried playing this way many times with both the Thunderer and the Ghost (and the Ulfserker, now and then).

In the first round, I pick feeding (30g), and 20 hitpoints (20g), which saves me 10 gold for the second round. The second round I have 40 gold (10g saved + 30g), which allows me to buy +2hp feeding ability. The first round I go towards the cave wall to make sure the AI can only attack from 3 sides, the other waves to the snow forest at 18,22.

dvormann
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Re: Colosseum - first round buy discussion

Post by dvormann » September 10th, 2009, 9:29 am

norbert wrote:More or less on-topic:
Very on topic. I think the main reason you lost is the first round buy decision.
norbert wrote:today, I made it until wave 7 (second to last) on Pro difficulty, using the standard map settings, with 1 unit. 8) A Ghost...
Using one unit means you loose less bonus gold per turn. And feeding gives more benefit. One ghost is actually easier than 6 normal units.
norbert wrote:There were many near-death experiences and I died at turn 126 while having 750+ max health.
500 HP are more than enough for the last wave. Do not waste your gold on HP and high feeding. Feeding 3 will do.
norbert wrote:There is a replay available. I've never gotten this far, even though I've tried playing this way many times with both the Thunderer and the Ghost (and the Ulfserker, now and then).
You did not buy any defense, damage or strikes. Defense 80 % saves tons of HP against non-magical attacks. And you really have to improve your weapons. You cannot expect to win if you are unable to scratch the opponent's skin.
norbert wrote:In the first round, I pick feeding (30g), and 20 hitpoints (20g),
I prefere 3 x both damage + 1 x ranged damage. Finish the 1st wave quick to buy feeding 2 for the 2nd. Feeding 3 for wave 3, then only damage (both damage preferred, ranged damage otherwise), defense 80 and ranged strikes if you can afford them.
norbert wrote:which saves me 10 gold for the second round. The second round I have 40 gold (10g saved + 30g), which allows me to buy +2hp feeding ability. The first round I go towards the cave wall to make sure the AI can only attack from 3 sides,
That way you have zero chance of earning more than 30 gold. Be aggressive and kill them quick. Drain heals you. A lone ghost on pro can earn more than 30 gold on the first 3 waves. Go for the gold!
norbert wrote:the other waves to the snow forest at 18,22.
Snow is nice as the few strikes you have will actually hit.

Edit:
In my opinion your replay shows why buying an ability on wave 1 is not a good idea: Without damage you cannot finish wave 1 quick.
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Colosseum_one_ghost_pro_replay.gz
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"m" is the key used most in Wesnoth.

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norbert
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Re: Colosseum - first round buy discussion

Post by norbert » September 10th, 2009, 10:18 am

Your strategy appears to work better; good stuff. But unfortunately you attached the replay... can you also do it like this on the server? (Without a Load Game option? :D) By the way, I played it again with a Thunderer yesterday, on my own pc, and got pretty far. Maybe I'll give the Thunderer yet another try in the future.

dvormann
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Re: Colosseum - first round buy discussion

Post by dvormann » September 10th, 2009, 10:24 am

norbert wrote:can you also do it like this on the server? (Without a Load Game option? :D)
There's little reason to use the server when playing on my own against AI. But I see your point.

I did try 5 times to win once. The problem is surviving the first 2 waves. The rest is easy.
"m" is the key used most in Wesnoth.

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norbert
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Re: Colosseum - first round buy discussion

Post by norbert » September 11th, 2009, 12:59 am

Woohoo, I finally made it with a single Thunderer on Pro! :D Here is the replay.
This wasn't easy, and the AI took ages during the last two waves. I'm quite happy about it. 8)
I wonder if it's possible with any other unit(s) besides the Ghost and the Thunderer...

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tekelili
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Re: Colosseum - first round buy discussion

Post by tekelili » January 10th, 2010, 6:43 pm

norbert wrote:Woohoo, I finally made it with a single Thunderer on Pro! :D Here is the replay.
This wasn't easy, and the AI took ages during the last two waves. I'm quite happy about it. 8)
I wonder if it's possible with any other unit(s) besides the Ghost and the Thunderer...
Six mages do it with almost 100% accuracy if you follow these steps:

round 1: Buy +3 range damage and use remaining gold in buy hp. GO FOR THEM, you will have a fast end and a nice gold bonus. (is good to send the first mage in move to sand as sometimes take him 1 turn more kill mud)

round 2: Buy +1 range strike and use remaining gold in hp: DO NOT MOVE FROM CASTLE, you are going to level your units to white mage and enjoy of multihealing. Yes, you will have a just 30 gold bonus, np. If you want, you can leave just 2 shamies alive that heal eachother and start to use your not yet leveled mages mele staf to win xp 8)

round 3 to final one: DO NOT MOVE FROM CASTLE. Your only move will be move to center one of your mages if he has serious damage and could die, so that mage will heal 40 hp/turn and will offer just 1 spot to attack him. You will waste almost all your money in MORE HP. Just buy 80 castle def when you lvl to mage of light, +1 both damage (yes, you need 8 mele damage) and remember to save 5 gold to buy +1 range strike in previous wave to last one.

I did it 6/6 at pro this way.
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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ScipioAfricanus
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Re: Colosseum - first round buy discussion

Post by ScipioAfricanus » March 12th, 2010, 11:51 am

How do you use regular units for Colosseum? When I play it I can only select the faction leader units. Maybe I'm using an older version?

silent
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Re: Colosseum - first round buy discussion

Post by silent » March 12th, 2010, 12:08 pm

ScipioAfricanus wrote:How do you use regular units for Colosseum? When I play it I can only select the faction leader units. Maybe I'm using an older version?
You need to play with colusseum era, not default era

ScipioAfricanus
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Re: Colosseum - first round buy discussion

Post by ScipioAfricanus » March 12th, 2010, 4:13 pm

Oh, ok, thanks

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Dunno
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Re: Colosseum - first round buy discussion

Post by Dunno » March 14th, 2010, 12:28 pm

I usually play as a thunderer and buy 2 ranged attacks (70 gold) and +2 damage to m attack (20 gold) and 10 hp (10 gold). Later I buy more ranged attacks and when I have like 5-6 I start buying abilities and defences.
Oh, I'm sorry, did I break your concentration?

batoonike
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Re: Colosseum - first round buy discussion

Post by batoonike » March 14th, 2010, 2:34 pm

Didnt see it mentioned here so: theoreticly your number of strikes should equal to 3.5 x damage, to get the maximum damage output for your cash. This is of course not true, if you need more reliable damage. Then take more strikes.
So your thunderer should have 5 or 6 strikes before upgrading damage, since 5 x 3.5 = 17,5 ~= 18, which is the damage of thunderer. (unless it levels up before you get 5 strikes)

* If you like math, this is because 1 strike is 3.5 times more expensive than 1 damage and you need to keep "benefit from the upgrade / cash spent on the upgrade" equal for all upgrades. For other upgrades, calculating the benefit so that its comparable to all other possible upgrades is a bit harder.

ilia
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Re: Colosseum - first round buy discussion

Post by ilia » April 17th, 2012, 9:24 am

to win on PRO:
have 3 ghost.

for the first one:
buy 5 damage, buy 10 hp.
all other rounds buy only hp.

for the second one:
buy 5 damage, buy 10 hp.
all other rounds buy only hp.

for the third one:
buy "cures, heals+8", all other money - buy hp.
all other rounds buy hp and heals+4.
Dont buy more then 100hp. 100 hp is enough for this unit.

1) stay in the castle - third ghost will heal.
2) third unit should have 20 XP - so monsters will not attack (waiting for lvl up).
3) dont attack with third unit.
4) when wave with berserker comes - go to border ant protect third ghost. cause berserker will attack third ghost.

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Re: Colosseum - first round buy discussion

Post by gavenkoa » February 8th, 2015, 10:33 pm

Gaiyamato wrote:Thunderer with feeding can solo on any difficulty.
1000hp Thunderer with 10-5 melee 40-7 ranged, 80% hills def is pure awesome, he laughs at the final round.

But I agree.
I've tried all sorts of ways to make feeding useful on round one, even in solo it isnt with the exception of thunderer.
In multiplayer? I wouldnt buy it on round 1.
It is however probably the best ability as a general vague rule (though not always in some specific cases).
Round 2 is another matter. Feeding is useful for most strats with some units on round 2 (and visa versa).

Extra strikes is how you survive the game though. Lots of strikes to reduce luck dependancy then ooooooodles of hp.
You can survive anything with enough hp because you can level fast with all the high level critters you fight, so long as you survive enough attacks.
With single Thunderer on Pro (40 ranged damage):

Code: Select all

1 wave: +60g, +20hp, +1 range attack. Get lvl2.
2 wave: 5+30g, +1 feeding.  Get lvl3, end with 100hp.
3 wave: 5+45g, +2 feeding. End with 178hp.
4 wave: 10+60g, +1 range attack, +20% hill defence. End with 274hp.
5 wave: 5+30g, +1 melee damage, +1 feeding. End with 400hp.
6 wave: 5+51g, +1 melee/range attack. End with 526hp.
7 wave: +30g, +1 melee damage, +1 feeding. End with 747hp.
8 wave: +30g, +3 melee damage. End with 898hp.
With single Ghost I win on average.

I try other units with high damage (at final level) and both melee and ranged.

Fencer (with 20 damage for Master at Arms) - can't survive first wave as have no range attack and have negative blade -30%, pierce -20%, impact -20%.

Ghoul (for feeding in lvl2) - can't survive first wave (able to up to lvl2) as have no range attack.

Troll Whelp (lvl2 Troll Rocklobber has 17-1 ranged attack), I end with:

Code: Select all

   1 wave: +60g, +25hp, +1 melee attack. Get lvl2.
   2 wave: +30g, +20% mountains.
   3 wave: +33g, can't survive mages.
fail mostly because I have no money to bye HP/feeding or range attack.

Dark Adept (Necromancer has 17-2 ranged) - can't survive first wave as have no range attack.

Drake Fighter (Drake Blademaster has 16-3 melee):

Code: Select all

1 wave: +60g, forget what doing...
2 wave: +45g, +1 feeding, +1 ranged damage
3 wave: +77g, +1 melee/ranged attack, +10% hill
4 wave: 5+72g, +1 melee/ranged attack, +1 feeding
5 wave: killed by Adepts because negative defence...
Attachments
Colosseum_replay-pro-single-Thunderer.gz
(54.7 KiB) Downloaded 153 times

gavenkoa
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Re: Colosseum - first round buy discussion

Post by gavenkoa » February 8th, 2015, 11:28 pm

Drake Fighter on Senior (Drake Blademaster has 16-3 melee):

Code: Select all

1 wave: +75g, +1 melee/ranged attack, +15hp
2 wave: 4+70g, +1 melee/ranged attack, +2 feeding, +5hp
3 wave: 3+94g, +1 melee/ranged attack, +1 feeding, +10% def on hill
4 wave: 6+92g, +1 melee/ranged damage, +2 feeding, +20% def on hill
5 wave: +76g, +1 melee/ranged damage, +2 feeding, +10% def on hill, end with 529hp
6 wave: 5+86g, +1 melee/ranged attack, +1 feeding, end with 745hp
7 wave: 15+80g, +3 melee/ranged damage, +2 feeding, end with 1129hp
8 wave: 7+86g, +1 melee/ranged attack, +2 melee/ranged damage, end with 1405hp
It was tricky to survive 1 wave. Each wave it become easy. Feedfing and 80% def make job well.
Attachments
Colosseum_replay-senior-single-Drake Fighter.gz
(51.28 KiB) Downloaded 154 times

gavenkoa
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Re: Colosseum - first round buy discussion

Post by gavenkoa » August 17th, 2015, 6:57 pm

gavenkoa wrote: Troll Whelp (lvl2 Troll Rocklobber has 17-1 ranged attack), I end with:

Code: Select all

   1 wave: +60g, +25hp, +1 melee attack. Get lvl2.
   2 wave: +30g, +20% mountains.
   3 wave: +33g, can't survive mages.
fail mostly because I have no money to bye HP/feeding or range attack.
I try play with 2 Troll Whelp on average - they also fail. It is hard to beat mudcrawler in first wave as they have 70% defense against only available impact attack.
gavenkoa wrote: Drake Fighter (Drake Blademaster has 16-3 melee):

Code: Select all

1 wave: +60g, forget what doing...
2 wave: +45g, +1 feeding, +1 ranged damage
3 wave: +77g, +1 melee/ranged attack, +10% hill
4 wave: 5+72g, +1 melee/ranged attack, +1 feeding
5 wave: killed by Adepts because negative defence...
I win game with 2 Drake Warrior on average. Seems that play on senior will be hard and depend on luck. With 100g I bought feeding and increase it to +4 (as Drake Warrior already has high attacks). All another waves I bought +1 melee/range attack and +1 feeding. See replay in attachment:
Colosseum_replay_2x_Drake_Warrior.gz
(55.04 KiB) Downloaded 142 times
I also win game with two Elvish Sorceress with buying feeding and +1 melee/range attack and placing units in forest where they have 70% defense. I lost one sorceress in 3 wave (it helps divide damage in 1-2 wave), last one get more HP from feeding. See replay in attachment:
Colosseum_replay_2x_Elvish_Sorceress.gz
(49.81 KiB) Downloaded 132 times

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