Ulfs

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The1exile
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Re: Human Assassin marksman?

Post by The1exile »

thespaceinvader wrote:The Knalgans have the Ulfzerker, whose Berzerk is equivalent to Marksman or Magic in other factions =)
While zerk is a useful unit, I find it difficult to justify saying it is an efficient counter to elvish archers when if they sit on a forest tile you have probably at best 4-4 at 40% defence versus 5-2 at 70% defence. Even though archers have slightly less health, I'm pretty sure they're likely to win that faceoff - and zerks aren't cheap. And how about the mermen and naga lines which knalgans lack completely? If a merman scarpers - and it's difficult to zoctrap a water unit - the only way to effectively chase them is with a ridiculously expensive gryphon rider.
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Velensk
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Re: Human Assassin marksman?

Post by Velensk »

At best 5-4 vs 4-2 and substancialy more hit points. The traits/resistances matter.

As it is the berserker fits the knalgan style far more than any mage or poisoner. You don't think about them with the same mindset, but they fill the same roll. You don't think "There is a tough melee unit I need to unroot from a rough spot, send in the berserker". What they do, is they force your enemy to limit their movements or pay a hefty price, they allow you to increase the amount of damage you can apply to any one point by a large amount. Between these things and your other tools you can force situations where even if you miss, as long as you don't do anything stupid afterwards, you can make it so that your enemy cannot take advantage of it. On the other hand if you hit, then you can press into their land and use your toughness to hold it.

I wish I had a replay of the game I am remembering, but It illustrates this effect very well.
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Caphriel
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Re: Human Assassin marksman?

Post by Caphriel »

I ran it through the fight simulator, and with no traits applied, the ulf on flat has about a 45% ctk an archer in forest. It goes up a bit if they're both strong, and down a little less if they're both resilient. Because the archer can get dexterous, the ulf is more likely to have applicable traits. The worst situation is a strong/resilient archer against a quick/intelligent ulf, with a pretty good chance to kill (I think it was about 80%.) As the ulf's terrain improves, the archer's terrain gets worse, and as the traits are shifted to favor the ulf, it goes up to almost 100%.
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The1exile
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Re: Human Assassin marksman?

Post by The1exile »

Velensk wrote:At best 5-4 vs 4-2 and substancialy more hit points. The traits/resistances matter.
Firstly, it's not 4-2, it's 5-2, and with 29 hp for the archer a 5 hp difference (the ulf has 34) is not a huge difference. And the ulf costs more.
Velensk wrote:As it is the berserker fits the knalgan style far more than any mage or poisoner. You don't think about them with the same mindset, but they fill the same roll. You don't think "There is a tough melee unit I need to unroot from a rough spot, send in the berserker". What they do, is they force your enemy to limit their movements or pay a hefty price, they allow you to increase the amount of damage you can apply to any one point by a large amount. Between these things and your other tools you can force situations where even if you miss, as long as you don't do anything stupid afterwards, you can make it so that your enemy cannot take advantage of it. On the other hand if you hit, then you can press into their land and use your toughness to hold it.

I wish I had a replay of the game I am remembering, but It illustrates this effect very well.
I don't doubt the Knalgans have a strong unit (when appropriately used) in the zerk, and I've argued for its use against rebels before now, often against mages of any type and even against woses in some situations. I do dispute its use as the be all and end all of Knalgan counter-ranged strategy, which it is, and thus (I think) makes the knalgans unbalanced against that faction.

Caphriel's analysis is right in that ulfs can be used to kill archers in the field, but then quite aside from proving that archers in forest against knalgans are killer tough (especially if they're resilient) by the time an archer is out in the open and within range of an ulf they may well have shot the ulf, probably giving it 10-15 health less, or 2-3 sword strikes less required to off the ulf.
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Re: Human Assassin marksman?

Post by krotop »

The1exile wrote:Firstly, it's not 4-2, it's 5-2
Velensk wrote:the resistances matter
The1exile wrote:they may well have shot the ulf, probably giving it 10-15 health less, or 2-3 sword strikes less required to off the ulf.
Actually, if you see an ulf damaged on the battlefield, it means that he already killed something, not that he got range-poked, or I'm really missing how ulfs are meant to be dealt with.
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Pentarctagon
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Re: Human Assassin marksman?

Post by Pentarctagon »

ulfs are best dealt with from a range, unless you have a level2 you don't mind getting damaged or its day and you have a wose :P . even with strong level 1 units, they are unlikely to have a high CTK.
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xivarmy
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Re: Human Assassin marksman?

Post by xivarmy »

Pentarctagon wrote:ulfs are best dealt with from a range, unless you have a level2 you don't mind getting damaged or its day and you have a wose :P . even with strong level 1 units, they are unlikely to have a high CTK.
How do you figure? Most melee units are likely to win vs the ulf which has no better than 40% except on top of a mountain (50%). unless you're at the wrong ToD (and in some cases even then), a cheaper general purpose melee unit will usually beat the ulf sometimes at the wrong ToD, and the general purpose unit costs less - and in the odd chance it fails, you get the square back to finish the deal. There are of course exceptions (such as strong resilient ulf vs not strong not resilient elvish fighter without good terrain).

And regarding the ulf probably having killed something if it's injured, because any melee unit can usually kill it and the ulf isn't exactly cheap they're almost always protected by ZoC until they're used to kill something.
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Re: Human Assassin marksman?

Post by Pentarctagon »

they have bad dodge, but they have the regular dwarven resistances, so attacks will do less damage and they also have a relatively high number of strikes. the main reason to keep them out of combat is because if the first unit that attacks it dies, then it can just be killed off by the second unit. there is no inbetween in which the attacking unit survives and blocks off that route of attack.
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The1exile
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Re: Human Assassin marksman?

Post by The1exile »

krotop wrote:Actually, if you see an ulf damaged on the battlefield, it means that he already killed something, not that he got range-poked, or I'm really missing how ulfs are meant to be dealt with.
That's far from certain, and if you can rangepoke an ulf who then has no option but to suicide melee while weakened, why not go for it?
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alpha1
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Re: Human Assassin marksman?

Post by alpha1 »

Pentarctagon wrote:ulfs are best dealt with from a range, unless you have a level2 you don't mind getting damaged or its day and you have a wose :P . even with strong level 1 units, they are unlikely to have a high CTK.
fight simulator says otherwise :P ulf vs elvish fighter (no traits/grassland): fighter has 75 ctk on ulf
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krotop
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Re: Human Assassin marksman?

Post by krotop »

That's far from certain, and if you can rangepoke an ulf who then has no option but to suicide melee while weakened, why not go for it?
If you can find a good terrain for your archer next to an ulf with no mountain for him, sure why not. It's just that it never happens at a remotely decent level.
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Re: Ulfs

Post by Turuk »

Split from the Assassin topic because you all were way off track.
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Re: Ulfs

Post by Pentarctagon »

alpha1 wrote:fight simulator says otherwise ulf vs elvish fighter (no traits/grassland): fighter has 75 ctk on ulf
and how much hp would your elf fighter have left? probably enough to be killed in 1 or 2 hits the next time it got attacked, and there's still the 25% chance that it would die anyway.
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alpha1
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Re: Ulfs

Post by alpha1 »

Pentarctagon wrote:
alpha1 wrote:fight simulator says otherwise ulf vs elvish fighter (no traits/grassland): fighter has 75 ctk on ulf
and how much hp would your elf fighter have left? probably enough to be killed in 1 or 2 hits the next time it got attacked, and there's still the 25% chance that it would die anyway.
sure, but how many fighters do you usually have compared to ulfs? even disregarding the cost difference i would gladly sacrifice a fighter if it means that my mages have a free hand at day (dont have to fear for my leader being ulfed, wont lose a village due to kamikaze-ulfs etc.)
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Sorrow
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Re: Ulfs

Post by Sorrow »

You totally and completely misunderstood what Velensk said.
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