Human Assassin marksman?

[monochromatic]

I know the orcish assassin has the marksman ability, but why not the Human assassin (Thief lvl3)? Is there a specific reason for this? Because my human assassins tend to miss enemies on high defensive terrain, obviously. Would you use this unit primarily to backstab or poison?

[xivarmy]

The orcish assassin getting marksman was a balance change in 1.6. I'd gather to reduce the problem of northerners not having anything "reliable" in their arsenal previously.

As for human assassins, i assume you're talking about campaign, and you can use them for either - they're still good for poisoning against high def targets (70% def, 3 attacks = 66% chance to poison). And backstab deals a ton of damage. Usually choose based on the situation. (backstabbing a hard hitting melee unit might not be such a great idea).

[Turuk]

The orcish assassin getting marksman was a balance change in 1.6. I'd gather to reduce the problem of northerners not having anything "reliable" in their arsenal previously.

Yup, made it into 1.6 stable but has been around since 1.5.4. There is a whole thread about the change if you look for it.

[Joram]

Giving the Human Assassin the marksman ability would not severely alter the balance, since level 3's are so rare. So is there a flavor reason not to?

[thespaceinvader]

Is there a flavour reason to make the change?

[krotop]

To re-use zookeeper's argument, if you consider marksman to mean 'expert at hitting with that weapon' then it makes more sense to give it to a lvl 3 war-machine than a lvl1 half-goblin.

[Eskon]

The thief line specializes in close quarter combat and only picks up the knives later. Still, if some orcish noob assassin can get good aim with his crudely-fashioned orc knives I vote that a level 3 human assassin, a seasoned professional with almost godly ninja-like leet skillz, should be at least as good. It's a good bit absurd right now.

[Skrim]

The human Assassin functions primarily as a Shadow/Nightgaunt style Skirmishing melee Backstabber, given that the Thief and Rogue are this sort of unit. The poisoned throwing knives are just an additional bonus.

The Orcish Assassin/Slayer on the other hand primarily function through their ranged poison knives, and have no Skirmisher ability and a pathetic melee attack.

They're different units, and although they're both the underhanded dodgy assassin types, their means of achieving the end are different. Poisoning is what the Orcish ones do, backstabbing is what the human ones specialize in. For the human Assassin, poisoning is a secondary art, thus it need not be as effective as it's dedicated half-Orc cousins.

Edit: If anything, it appears stranger that the Orcish Assassin should have Marksman, than the human Assassin not having it. Marksman is generally reserved for the best hot-shot snipers in the game, namely the Elvish Maksman/Sharpshooter, human Huntsman, and the aerial Drake Glider line. Even Loyalist Master Bowmen don't have this ability, it seems funny how the noob half-Orcs have it.

[ancestral]

Let me get this straight… you want to give the Assassin marksman, in addition to the unit already having skirmisher and backstab — two abilities the Orc doesn't have? Egads man!

To me, the backstab seems to imply the Assassin is more of a stealthy rogue, able to cross enemy lines, who is proficient with taking down foes from behind. The ranged attack is secondary to the Assassin's primary training with the dagger.

Also keep in mind the Huntsman has marksman. Having two different unit lines with marksman seems a bit much for just one faction, especially when there are a few factions who don't have marksman.

So I'm against you on this one.

[Radament]

Well, thieves only need stealth. After you've slipped behind someone, there's no need for skills like carving out your name on a distant tree with a single throwing knife. As long as you can hit the broad side of a barn, you can be a fine assasin.

[Aethaeryn]

By the line of reasoning, the Assassin should get nightstalk since the Shadow gets nightstalk. Both are skirmishing backstabbers, and I see no reason that the Assassin couldn't hypothetically find a place to hide at night if HAPMA.

No, I'm not serious. Unit-to-unit comparisons aren't how you balance things in Wesnoth.

[monochromatic]

Let me get this straight… you want to give the Assassin marksman, in addition to the unit already having skirmisher and backstab — two abilities the Orc doesn't have? Egads man!

Well, I wasn't trying to suggest that we change the human assassin (I'd probably be yelled at by the devs, nor do I have a good reason to change it), but I was really wondering about the difference in uses between the human assassin and the orcish assassin line. So it looks like the human assassin's chief use is its stealthy backstab, something the orcish assassins cannot do. I was trying to use it to poison a leader in HttT, but failed and it died. Looks like I need to rethink about how I use the unit...

[ancestral]

By the line of reasoning, the Assassin should get nightstalk since the Shadow gets nightstalk.

And then I accidentally gave the level 4 Assassin nightstalk (We'll see how that plays out nevetheless.)

You raise a good point, though. It's very hard to do unit-to-unit comparisons justly. Although the units may face each other one day in battle, each unit has separate costs, different levels, let alone what all his comrades are doing.

[Turuk]

Units are also balanced on how they will balance out their faction, not against their "counterpart" in another faction.

[krotop]

I don't get all these balance or power arguments, I was sure the throwing knife attack was, for both lvl2 and lvl3, only there for flavour purpose (to keep on that knife throwing ninja cliché). It certainly makes him more annoying to kill with ranged attacks from low level units, but it doesn't influence the way you use him, and marksman wouldn't change it either.