Leveling Choice: Grand Knight vs. Paladin

[Skrim]

Wait, wait, wait, what? Trios of paladins heal each other 8hp per turn? Huh? I don't think that's right. I mean, I got a dwarfish lord injured badly in HttT and I surrounded him with shamans. He still healed 4hp per turn. Maybe my version was old or something, but isn't it like that?

2 Paladins standing next to each other will heal each other 4 HP each turn. Now, since both of them get healed, the total healing is 4 x 2 = 8 HP per turn.

[Araja]

Interesting, but at the end of the day it's still 4HP each, and these fast moving cavalry have to be next to eachother to get 4HP each.

The healing is a much weaker reason then the arcane, in my opinion.

[Aethaeryn]

More often than not, Heals +4 is most useful to keep poison in check until you can get the poisoned unit(s) to a village or curing unit. Healing by four simply takes too long.

[The_great_new_thing]

"Resting can be combined with other forms of healing, but villages, regeneration, healing and curing cannot combine with each other: the best option will be used."

Isn't that right?

[Turuk]

"Resting can be combined with other forms of healing, but villages, regeneration, healing and curing cannot combine with each other: the best option will be used."

Isn't that right?

Yes.

[The_great_new_thing]

Ok, I see now. But each paladin still heals about 4hp per turn, and that's very less. I would prefer a fast white mage or a fast shyde.

[Araja]

A charging pierce attack, which will only become innefective against undead or elusives.
And an arcane (undeads no longer a problem) with many strikes (elusives less of a problem)

They seem to be grand knights, with a bit less damage but their weaknesses rounded out, the heals+4 is very much a secondary thing in my opinion, the combat power is far more noticeable.

[KrisK]

Paladins are specialized units, but both of their specialties are available from White Magi, which are easier to come by in a campaign, and are much more common in multiplayer. The only time I found a paladin useful in a campaign was AToTB during the "Guarded Castle" scenario, but Grand Knight is better for AToTB since it is useful during all stages of the campaign, except "Rooting out a Mage" for obvious reasons.

[forbiddian]

Hmm. I find the Paladin to be better overall as a much more flexible unit, I think the Grand Knight also has a critical use. I understand that a big part of the debate will come down to playing styles, so I'll talk about mine.

Especially in Campaigns when I'm free to impose your strategy onto the AI, I enjoy long distance raids with 1 or 2 very fast units and then keeping the rest of my army together. The fast units have the intention of securing more gold and dividing the enemy force/delaying the enemy so I can get my troops into a favorable position or fight against a divided army.

I try to maneuver my entire army against their entire army (very medieval, I know) and get in an alpha strike when the time is right, the terrain is right, and ideally I get to cross the T when he has a slow flank so he can't retaliate). I'm looking for one battle with very favorable conditions where I can get my entire army to bear against a smaller part of their army and then steamroll their remaining half.

It's generally effective (easier for me -- reminiscent of Total War games) and I find it to be fun. It's like Alexander the Great or Hannibal or Scipio annihilating hordes of enemies with superior tactics (yeah, I know the AI is pretty stupid, but I still feel cool outsmarting it). Unfortunately, it's higher risk: a failed enfilade will cost me at least 1-2 levelled units as well as a few sacrificial lambs. It's also harder to level troops across a campaign because I don't have as many opportunities to tease out stragglers and whittle them down and finally kill them with a low level with good attributes. I generally have one turn where I'm trying to kill 5, 6, or even 7 enemy units and set up a new line to hold against the other attacks. And I have to be pretty sure I can do it or the cost is too great.


A few Paladins are often required to bust through undead stages (that or tons of Mages), but if your strategy sets the critical part of the scenario at just a few turns and especially if you keep your army together where units can get Heals +8, Heals +4 is not nearly as useful as 13 hps.

[The1exile]

Paladins are specialized units, but both of their specialties are available from White Magi, which are easier to come by in a campaign, and are much more common in multiplayer. The only time I found a paladin useful in a campaign was AToTB during the "Guarded Castle" scenario, but Grand Knight is better for AToTB since it is useful during all stages of the campaign, except "Rooting out a Mage" for obvious reasons.

I disagree. While the White Mage does have a similar role with its arcane attack, the paladin having arcane damage in melee can make all the difference. It means a paladin can melee any arcane weak units and, to put the cherry on the proverbial cake, he will have resistance against their counter attacks from all units but the Drake Clasher line (unless I'm forgetting any undead/elf/wose pierce melee units).

[Skrim]

Paladins are specialized units, but both of their specialties are available from White Magi, which are easier to come by in a campaign, and are much more common in multiplayer. The only time I found a paladin useful in a campaign was AToTB during the "Guarded Castle" scenario, but Grand Knight is better for AToTB since it is useful during all stages of the campaign, except "Rooting out a Mage" for obvious reasons.

I disagree. While the White Mage does have a similar role with its arcane attack, the paladin having arcane damage in melee can make all the difference. It means a paladin can melee any arcane weak units and, to put the cherry on the proverbial cake, he will have resistance against their counter attacks from all units but the Drake Clasher line (unless I'm forgetting any undead/elf/wose pierce melee units).

Aye. A White Mage attacking a Lich will usually get itself badly damaged or killed. A Paladin attacking a Lich will usually deal heavy damage to the Lich and take hardly any itself. Also, the Paladin is much tougher and faster than a White Mage or MoL, and retains it's charging lance attack.

As for Drake Clashers, it's generally a bad idea to attack them with horses in the first place. And no, the Elves, Undead and Woses have no melee pierce attacks, only ranged ones from bows.

[Aethaeryn]

And no, the Elves, Undead and Woses have no melee pierce attacks, only ranged ones from bows.

Chocobone!

[Skrim]

D'oh! Forgot about those bird-bone-rider thingies.

So yeah, the Undead do have a piercing unit. Still, it's attack is pretty weak when it's not charging, equivalent to a non-strong Level 1 Horseman. And it's difficult for a Choco to charge a Paladin; it crumbles if it gets two retaliatory hits at daytime or dawn/dusk, or three at night. Though the thing can charge down Mages pretty effectively if it can reach them.
And my statement still hold true for Elves, Trolls and Woses.

[Araja]

As soon as Skrim asked if there were any he missed I thought "Chocobone!" and as I read down I find someone else had already gotten there.
Ah well

What this seems to boil down to "Paladins can fight everything, Grand Knights can't"

[The1exile]

I've only ever seen Chocobones once. What campaigns are they in?