Bats: Flying Wonders?

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Skrim
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Skrim »

I disagree. Ghosts can be incredibly annoying vs Knalgans, but anyone who has access to Fire or Arcane attacks can handle them easily. And they're expensive, demand upkeep, and get slowed over water.

Anyone up for Cave Spiders as the Most Annoying Unit Outside of MP?

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Pentarctagon
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Pentarctagon »

I disagree. Ghosts can be incredibly annoying vs Knalgans, but anyone who has access to Fire or Arcane attacks can handle them easily. And they're expensive, demand upkeep, and get slowed over water
well for one, i don't think that there are any lvl1 units with arcane outside of ghosts/adepts. also, units that do have fire (such as mages) are just as expensive as ghosts, but are much less manuverable/much worse resistances. on the other hand, they do have magical. then there are orc archers, which also have fire, but no magical so the 50% dodge is an issue.
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manored
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by manored »

Pentarctagon wrote:i would definitely say that ghosts come in a close second though, with their resistances and draining and 50% everywhere.
Personally I dont like using ghosts much, their resistences are counterbalanced by their low health and rarely an enemy will not have any ranged units nearby to avoid their draining. They are great on villages though gaining +8 hp per turn but its hard to sneak a ghost into the enemy village cluster, especially due to their slowness over water and the fact they lose a lot of attack power during day.

Off course, I might just not be using then well enough :)

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Pentarctagon
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Pentarctagon »

ghosts are great as village holders, and also as a melee-based deterrent, mostly due to their drain weapon special. in most cases, if you are using a ghost, the opponent will wait until they have a unit with magical (except for the northerners) so that the ghost will not stand in the way of the melee-based units. even if you range the ghost, if you don't use a mage, the ghost will be able to survive a decent amount of attacks. also, ghosts have a range attack, so they can deal some minor counter-damage in return, unlike bats.
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Skrim
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Skrim »

Still, the annoying-ness of Ghosts is pathetic compared to the epic annoyance dealt by Vampire Bats. Vampire Bats are annoying both in MP and campaigns. Even the AI knows how to run around stealing villages with bats.

Ghosts are not that annoying. Magi and Adepts own them. Orcish Archers are quite effective too. And all fire-breathing Drakes will make short work of them, especially Gliders(with their speed and Marksman ability) and Burners(with their sheer attack power). Even regular piercing ranged attackers are moderately effective. And in campaigns, Paladins will destroy even Specters effortlessly, and Nightgaunts once they have been found.

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Pentarctagon
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Pentarctagon »

I would still put ghosts at number 2, as they can be a real annoyance, especially if you recruited badly.
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silent
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by silent »

Skrim wrote:Still, the annoying-ness of Ghosts is pathetic compared to the epic annoyance dealt by Vampire Bats. Vampire Bats are annoying both in MP and campaigns. Even the AI knows how to run around stealing villages with bats.

Ghosts are not that annoying. Magi and Adepts own them. Orcish Archers are quite effective too. And all fire-breathing Drakes will make short work of them, especially Gliders(with their speed and Marksman ability) and Burners(with their sheer attack power). Even regular piercing ranged attackers are moderately effective. And in campaigns, Paladins will destroy even Specters effortlessly, and Nightgaunts once they have been found.
Perhaps if the undead player has placed his ghost badly, but not if they know what they're doing. Play them similar to a mage. Make sure they are only vulnerable from one side and preferably not during the preferred ToD of the opponent

a few kills and xp and you get either an awesome backstab unit or a real pain to deal with

It also sounds like you've had trouble with alone at last in DiD

Elvish Scientist
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Elvish Scientist »

Skrim wrote: Ghosts are not that annoying. Magi and Adepts own them. Orcish Archers are quite effective too. And all fire-breathing Drakes will make short work of them, especially Gliders(with their speed and Marksman ability) and Burners(with their sheer attack power). Even regular piercing ranged attackers are moderately effective. And in campaigns, Paladins will destroy even Specters effortlessly, and Nightgaunts once they have been found.
I would add the thief. A couple of thiefs, or a thief with a medium effective ranged attack (poacher, thunderer), can easily take out a ghost. If a backstabbing thief hits twice at night, the ghost is dead.

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Skrim
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Skrim »

silent wrote:
Skrim wrote:Still, the annoying-ness of Ghosts is pathetic compared to the epic annoyance dealt by Vampire Bats. Vampire Bats are annoying both in MP and campaigns. Even the AI knows how to run around stealing villages with bats.

Ghosts are not that annoying. Magi and Adepts own them. Orcish Archers are quite effective too. And all fire-breathing Drakes will make short work of them, especially Gliders(with their speed and Marksman ability) and Burners(with their sheer attack power). Even regular piercing ranged attackers are moderately effective. And in campaigns, Paladins will destroy even Specters effortlessly, and Nightgaunts once they have been found.
Perhaps if the undead player has placed his ghost badly, but not if they know what they're doing. Play them similar to a mage. Make sure they are only vulnerable from one side and preferably not during the preferred ToD of the opponent

a few kills and xp and you get either an awesome backstab unit or a real pain to deal with

It also sounds like you've had trouble with alone at last in DiD

No, I got bored of DiD after finishing Return to Parthyn, and haven't picked up on it again recently. The Paladin comment was in regards to my own usage of Paladins in HttT, EI and TRoW. Enemy-controlled L3 ghosts appear in EI, and L2s are pretty common in most campaigns.

I'm not talking about Ghosts being weak or useless, I'm talking about them not being annoying. I've personally not found them to be very irritating, not like bats.

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Pentarctagon
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Pentarctagon »

well it depends on how you use them, like silent said. bats are annoying just because of what they are. ghosts require some ammount thought in their use before they become annoying. with the right positioning and application, ghosts can become extremely annoying to get rid of.
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Skrim
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Skrim »

Technically, any unit played well enough can be really annoying.

Orcish Assassins are annoying. Fencers and Saurian Skirmishers are annoying. Footpads are annoying. Magi and Dark Adepts are annoying. Dwarvish Thunderers are annoying(to both the user and the target). Horsemen are annoying. Woses are annoying. Gryphon Riders are annoying. Thieves are annoying. Troll Whelps are annoying. Walking Corpses are annoying. Ghosts are just one of many potentially annoying units on the list.

But it remains that Bats are probably the most annoying.

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Araja
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Araja »

Skrim wrote:Anyone up for Cave Spiders as the Most Annoying Unit Outside of MP?
Maybe having one as your Avatar was a poor choice then... :mrgreen:

Well, as we were discussing what the most annoying unit in Wesnoth is, then after a list of 14 units you've come back on topic* and agreed with everyone.

*Which is ironically off topic.

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Rigor
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Rigor »

i got another bat only starters game on fallen star lake vs Chri7mas, he played orcs.

bats proved once more how bloody annoying they are .

i appreciate your comments.
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Rigor
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Rigor »

bats the flying wonders again saved me from a horrible cavalry rush, which Quetzalcoatl expertly used on freelands. wait, bats you say? against cavalry ? well, i think everything is possible with these little monsters.

here goes the savegame, i was forced playing defender.
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Rigor
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Rigor »

btw, skrim, now that i see that u also post on the forum, the successful poacher-only strategy is here:

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 25#p369825

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