Bats: Flying Wonders?

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Skrim
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Skrim » July 2nd, 2009, 5:39 am

The explanation for why ghosts can't move over water quickly? Four words: A wizard did it.

The behavior of ghosts, being fantasy entities, is entirely under the domain of the artist, who can make them do whatever s/he wishes. This work of art, being a game, calls for the ghosts to behave in a manner that would ensure better gameplay. A realism-based argument is simply out of context when talking about things that don't exist in reality.
It would've at least been somewhat in context if we were talking about bowmen or cavalry or the sort, the few units that actually did exist in history.

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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Ardent » July 2nd, 2009, 6:30 am

It is however possible, that just like vampires the ghosts (as undead) have trouble crossing moving water, which would be a good fantasy based 'realistic' explanation. :)
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Eskon » July 2nd, 2009, 7:46 am

I've never bought the "It's not real, it doesn't need to be explained" argument. Just because you create a fantasy world doesn't mean that there's no need for it to be consistent with itself. I actually buy the slower movement over water - it's a barely manifest spirit of the dead, after all, so why not have problems with water vapors, and maybe moving water has some sort of strange mystical effect, of course, all possible - just wanted to crack a joke ;)

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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Turuk » July 2nd, 2009, 12:46 pm

Eskon wrote: I've never bought the "It's not real, it doesn't need to be explained" argument. Just because you create a fantasy world doesn't mean that there's no need for it to be consistent with itself.
It has nothing to do with avoiding consistency, it has to do with the fact that if it's not real, but only something dreamed up in a fantasy world (i.e. not possible in real life), then it's not always possible to make a reasonable explanation for why things happen.

This reminds me of the how Gryphons fly thread.
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manored
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by manored » July 2nd, 2009, 4:16 pm

Pentarctagon wrote: that's assuming that there is only one unit chasing you or it's a huge map. also, an elvish scout can keep up with a bat since the elvish scout actually has one more base move than bats do, as well as only one movement cost over forests. it also has a ranged attack, so it won't even have to melee the bat and risk getting drained.
You will only get more than one unit after you if you move dangerously, and, thanks to the bats huge sight, thats unlikely to happen by accident. In not-huge maps you can just hide the bat behind your troops after you have moved then. Elvish scouts and some other cavalry can indeed be a treat for the bat, but most maps have a nice distribuition of tiles such as swamps, water and mountain wich you can fly over with the bat to delay the pursuer.
Turuk wrote:
Pentarctagon wrote:i've always wondered, why do ghosts get worse movement on water? they just float above/through stuff, what difference is it that they are now floating over water instead of a mountain?
Reasons not always based on realism, but for balance purposes.
I suppose ghosts would be too freaking awesome flankers if they could move fast upon water, right?

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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Pentarctagon » July 2nd, 2009, 4:34 pm

manored wrote:You will only get more than one unit after you if you move dangerously, and, thanks to the bats huge sight, thats unlikely to happen by accident. In not-huge maps you can just hide the bat behind your troops after you have moved then. Elvish scouts and some other cavalry can indeed be a treat for the bat, but most maps have a nice distribuition of tiles such as swamps, water and mountain wich you can fly over with the bat to delay the pursuer.
if an enemy gets any unit, but scouts in particular, then it is very important to kill them before they disrupt your income to much by taking a bunch of villages. also, it is not that difficult to catch a bat with with 2-3 units. a good combination is an elvish scout to force the bat to move, along with an elvish archer both for the ranged attack and because the archer has 6 base movement.
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by palloco » July 2nd, 2009, 5:27 pm

How do you thinks that ghosts move? Do you think that they generate energy? No, they don't.
In Wesnoth one of the possible forms of energy is arcane energy. Ghosts exist because they drain arcane energy that is generated in other living forms. This is created through psykick powers, and a typical manifestation of this energy when it is in high concentration are the arcane balls fired by some magi. Fireballs and cold balls are the manifestation of very unstable arcane energy, and as such, it quickly transforms into other mundane energies.
Living forms with greater psickick capabilities are tipically found over the land (human, elves), but most of them are unable to totally control these energy, so it escapes from their bodies, and ghosts absorb that energy. That is why they exist. In water zones there are much less of these living forms, that is why ghosts do not obtain enough energy to move as fast as over land.

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Pentarctagon
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Pentarctagon » July 2nd, 2009, 9:03 pm

there are still fish. water environments actually will usually have much more life in them than land areasof the same size. also, wouldnt that also then mean that ghost would have an even harder time moving over desert areas since almost nothing live in a desert?
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Dodgy Tactician » July 2nd, 2009, 10:06 pm

palloco wrote:How do you thinks that ghosts move? Do you think that they generate energy? No, they don't.
Technically speaking, it's true that ghosts don't generate energy, but then according to the conservation of energy laws, neither does anything else. However, conservation of energy is irrelevant in Wesnoth, so it's something of a meaningless diversion. If you really don't like them the way they are, then you can always rename them as "Hydrophobic Spirits" or something.

Back on topic though, I like bats for their movement, high defence and vision. I do tend to let them die when I don't quite manage to kill off a unit and bring a bat or two into a heavy melee battle. I don't think they are a wondrous unit that beats everything else but they are the most cost-effective scouting unit in the game, especially since their zero upkeep makes them a great investment on large maps.

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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by palloco » July 3rd, 2009, 4:48 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:there are still fish. water environments actually will usually have much more life in them than land areasof the same size. also, wouldnt that also then mean that ghost would have an even harder time moving over desert areas since almost nothing live in a desert?
But in the water, the living forms do not have as much psykock powers. It is not the surface density, it is the volumetric density what matters.

Good point about the deserts, however, Wesnoth deserts are full of tragic stories of epic battles. Some of them were not always deserts. Arcane energy from the dead keeps flowing in these regions. And some are habitated by mighty drakes, full of arcane energy, as we could see by how quickly ghosts regenerate from them.

We are yet unable to understand some of the forces in this world, but some have seen demonic forces inmune to heat.There may be a possibility that some deserts are artificially created by higher forces or that they are being somehow used.





Wesnoth world is dictated by conservation of energy, otherwise movement and life would be totally different.

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Skrim
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Skrim » July 3rd, 2009, 5:30 pm

There is no conservation of mass/energy in Wesnoth. Look at Trolls. They supposedly eat very little according to their race description, yet they have enough left-over protein mass to regenerate at such a rapid pace. And Magi. They pull fire balls out of nowhere, violating energy conservation and thermodynamics at the same time. WINE.


If anyone really wants a plausible magic-based reason as to why Ghosts get slowed down by water, well, my best guess is that it has something to do with their levitation enchantments. They do not actually fly. They are merely levitated by magic. These levitation enchantments work well for levitating above a solid surface and allow the Ghost to cruise over solids with little disturbance or friction. But they falter when levitating over a liquid surface, the liquid somehow disturbing their enchantments.

All of Wesnoth's supposed "flying units" use different modes of flight. The Ghost-line units levitate. The Elvish Sylph/Shyde hover at low altitude. The Drakes glide, like hang gliders, taking off from an elevation and gliding to their destination. Only Gryphons and Bats are capable of true powered flight.

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Pentarctagon
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Pentarctagon » July 3rd, 2009, 5:35 pm

but that begs the question, how do ghosts, which need to absorb energy to exist, have enough left over to spend it on levitation?
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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Araja » July 3rd, 2009, 6:06 pm

I think Skrim's point is the best idea for why ghosts are slowed by water.
Pentarctagon wrote:but that begs the question, how do ghosts, which need to absorb energy to exist, have enough left over to spend it on levitation?
Why do birds, which need to eat to exist, have enough energy left over to fly?
Your food and your method of getting around don't have the cancel eachother out.

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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by palloco » July 3rd, 2009, 6:25 pm

Skrim wrote:There is no conservation of mass/energy in Wesnoth. Look at Trolls. They supposedly eat very little according to their race description, yet they have enough left-over protein mass to regenerate at such a rapid pace.
In no place of the description it says anything about trolls having proteins. Trolls have a strange physiology, more than animals they can be considered living minerals as most of they body is constituted by earth and rock. As such regeneration simply means restoring body placements. They are unconsciously capable of transforming kinetic energy into arcane energy, which is what keeps them alive and allows them to do what they do.

Skrim wrote:And Magi. They pull fire balls out of nowhere, violating energy conservation and thermodynamics at the same time. WINE.
They are able to transform inner and external kinetic energy into arcane energy

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Re: Bats: Flying Wonders?

Post by Araja » July 3rd, 2009, 6:37 pm

Ghosts go slower over water because the psychic energy of fishes isn't very good...O..K.

Land dwelling humanoids exude psychic energy and that's how the ghost's survive...nothing to do with with the fact that they're just a soul which has been bond to service and doesn't actually need energy to survive then?...

But in deserts there is also nearly no..oh right arcane energy from the dead flows over them...

Trolls unconsciously transform kinetic energy into arcane energy and that's how they regenerate? Nothing to do with enhanced metabolism such as the way a lizard's tail regrows then?

And mages transform kinetic energy into arcane energy?

Sorry, but are you a physics student? :mrgreen:

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