Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

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Mystery
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Re: Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

Post by Mystery » July 20th, 2009, 12:42 am

The way that map is set up it's almost impossible to NOT "blitz" the opposition.

I hate it. :(

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Re: Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

Post by Pentarctagon » July 20th, 2009, 7:34 am

any chance you can post the actual replay? all your showing is turn 7, in which the units left seemed more like grunt spam than blitzkrieg.
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Re: Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

Post by donkey_noob_trash1 » July 20th, 2009, 9:09 am

Pentarctagon wrote:any chance you can post the actual replay? all your showing is turn 7, in which the units left seemed more like grunt spam than blitzkrieg.
Ah, crap. Sorry. I'll see if I can get a working replay off the server.

But anyways, yah, it was classic blitzing... he won by out-manuevering his opponent. The opponent never really had a chance to form up a coherent defense.
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Re: Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

Post by Pentarctagon » July 20th, 2009, 6:08 pm

sounds kind of like a ladder match i saw online last week. both players were dwarves, side 1 recruits like normal for a drawn-out match and side 2 recruits only footpads. he won by avoiding side 1's units and standing on the villages. with the extra income he made more footpads and eventually drawned side 1 with them. side 1's biggest mistake was recruiting 2 griffon riders against footpads.
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Re: Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

Post by donkey_noob_trash1 » July 20th, 2009, 7:16 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:sounds kind of like a ladder match i saw online last week. both players were dwarves, side 1 recruits like normal for a drawn-out match and side 2 recruits only footpads. he won by avoiding side 1's units and standing on the villages. with the extra income he made more footpads and eventually drawned side 1 with them. side 1's biggest mistake was recruiting 2 griffon riders against footpads.
I need to see this replay. Can you remember any of who the players were?
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Re: Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

Post by Pentarctagon » July 20th, 2009, 8:15 pm

i found the replay, here it is:
I'm glad i wasn't playing this match lol, it would have been very annoying.
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Re: Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

Post by donkey_noob_trash1 » July 20th, 2009, 9:07 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:i found the replay, here it is:
I'm glad i wasn't playing this match lol, it would have been very annoying.
Awesome! I've never seen footpads used in such an aggressive manner!
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Re: Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

Post by HenryBird » July 20th, 2009, 11:54 pm

The Great Rings wrote:I find that Wesnoth tends to favor defense, and that rushing is a good way to die.
I am by most counts a very defensive player, and especially in games against multiple opponents, I've never been quick to make any sudden advances beyond what is necessary to claim my share of villages. In my experience, if a blitzkrieg player can pull off a good assault against even one of my starting villages in the first two turns or so, it can often tear down my game plan pretty quickly. However, the blitzkrieger usually must take out at least half of my starting forces in order for it to give him the advantage, as this fighting style almost always has a high death toll itself.

I have only encountered a select few who can pull that style off, as often times what I see is an apparently alarming assault, which usually ends with the defending player finishing off the attackers, remounting their forces and crushing what's left of the blitzkrieger's remaining army.

However, I have seen the blitzkrieg done right, and when correctly executed, it's rather terrifying (and thoroughly demoralizing). As a player of what I consider to be average skill, witnessing an effective offensive player is awe inspiring, but for the most part I must agree with the above statement by The Great Rings.
donkey_noob_trash1 wrote:Knalgans can do a great rush too. Probably better than orcs.
I often play Knalgans for their well-developed defensive capabilities, but I am intrigued by the idea of mounting a blitzkrieg offensive with an army consisting of frail scout units and squat tanks with a movement of 4... I've used berserkers to take out select villages and high-priority units, but this usually only occurs when I'm up against opponents who are too lazy to check the surrounding ZOC's...
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Re: Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

Post by Skrim » July 21st, 2009, 11:06 am

I often play Knalgans for their well-developed defensive capabilities, but I am intrigued by the idea of mounting a blitzkrieg offensive with an army consisting of frail scout units and squat tanks with a movement of 4... I've used berserkers to take out select villages and high-priority units, but this usually only occurs when I'm up against opponents who are too lazy to check the surrounding ZOC's...
The Knalgans are very well capable of mounting blitzkriegs. It usually involves heavy use of the Footpad, which is actually fairly durable, along with dodgy but frail Thieves and ranged-poking Poachers. Gryphons may also be included for extra damage per hex, and Ulfs could maybe have some role as well given that they have 5/6 moves.

But the Footpad is the core. It can survive decently, move quickly, steal villages, and do some amount of damage in both melee and ranged. The rest just provide firepower.

However, I have seen the blitzkrieg done right, and when correctly executed, it's rather terrifying (and thoroughly demoralizing). As a player of what I consider to be average skill, witnessing an effective offensive player is awe inspiring, but for the most part I must agree with the above statement by The Great Rings.
A blitzkrieg done right is an awesome sight if you are the blitzer, an ally of the blitzer, or a detached observer. A blitzkrieg stopped in it's tracks, bogged down, and then steamrolled is also an awesome sight, for the opponents of the blitzer or a detached observer who dislikes blitzes.

It's like a Charge attack on a strategic scale; either it kills swiftly or backfires spectacularly.

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Re: Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

Post by Sorrow » July 21st, 2009, 5:57 pm

Its called Hodor and its a great way to crush new players and its a fantastic way to doom yourself against a skilled player.
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Re: Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

Post by Pentarctagon » July 21st, 2009, 7:15 pm

i would have to disagree with that. HODOR can be very effective, the key (as far as i can tell) is to use your units in a much more indirect approach. that being the taking of enemies villages and better use of terrain along with sheer number of cheaper units, instead of a direct head-on approach. after all, it doesn't matter how many you lose if you can replace your losses and your enemy can't. if you watch the replay i posted, you will notice that the HODOR player has twice the units lost as the non-HODOR player. however, he also ends up with many more units because he consistantly controls the majority of the villages.
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Re: Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

Post by donkey_noob_trash1 » July 21st, 2009, 7:43 pm

Sorrow wrote:Its called Hodor and its a great way to crush new players and its a fantastic way to doom yourself against a skilled player.
It should be noted that the player known as "HODOR" happened to make it up to #6 on the ladder at one point. I challenge you to do better using your standard strategy.
Pentarctagon wrote:i would have to disagree with that. HODOR can be very effective, the key (as far as i can tell) is to use your units in a much more indirect approach. that being the taking of enemies villages and better use of terrain along with sheer number of cheaper units, instead of a direct head-on approach. after all, it doesn't matter how many you lose if you can replace your losses and your enemy can't. if you watch the replay i posted, you will notice that the HODOR player has twice the units lost as the non-HODOR player. however, he also ends up with many more units because he consistantly controls the majority of the villages.
Agreed. However, although I do love HODORing people, when I am actually using the blitz with Knalgans, I usually go outlaw heavy with a gryphon thrown in to help support thief backstabbings. My motto with Knalgans is "outlaws to capture, dwarves to hold." However, sometimes you can win the game before even getting to the "hold" stage. Just depends how active the other player's leader is, and how exposed he lets it get.
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Re: Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

Post by ParadiseCity » July 22nd, 2009, 2:28 am

I think that Blitzing can be a good, and a bad thing.

Good:

-May catch opponent off guard
(IMPORTANT NOTE: notice that this is not certain)

-Can take advantage of any flaws of opponents defenses and/or initial recruits, even minor ones

-Almost guaranteed increase in income

-HODOR is on your side :eng:

Bad:

-If successfully repeled you are screwed

-It heavily depends on your opponent's choices

-The increase in income can be small compared to your losses


Personally i don't like the overreliance on your opponent's choices. I like to sit back and let my opponent try to attack then counter-attack them. Just my style i guess.

I have replays but unfortunately i do not have time to really post them as it is getting late here. However, there is one of my games in which i got OWNED by HODOR in a ladder match vs meganoob...which pentarctagon posted already, without asking me :shock:

Another player that uses this to great success is Kikohil, look on the official ladder site for replays. I can post some soon.

P.S. Donkey, did i play a match against you a couple days ago? It was the one where my partner was getting beaten by your HODOR tactics and being sort of a jerk :? . Unfortunately i don't remember any more than that because i had to go somewhere and let my brother finish the match.
Last edited by ParadiseCity on July 22nd, 2009, 2:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

Post by donkey_noob_trash1 » July 22nd, 2009, 4:30 am

ParadiseCity wrote:I think that Blitzing can be a good, and a bad thing.

Good:

-May catch opponent off guard
(IMPORTANT NOTE: notice that this is not certain)

-Can take advantage of any flaws of opponents defenses and/or initial recruits, even minor ones

-Almost guaranteed increase in income

-HODOR is on your side :eng:

Bad:

-If successfully repeled you are screwed

-It heavily depends on your opponent's choices

-The increase in income can be small compared to your losses


Personally i don't like the overreliance on your opponent's choices. I like to sit back and let my opponent try to attack then counter-attack them. Just my style i guess.

I have replays but unfortunately i do not have time to really post them as it is getting late here. However, there is one of my games in which i got OWNED by HODOR in a ladder match vs meganoob...which pentarctagon posted already, without asking me :shock:

Another player that uses this to great success is Kikohil, look on the official ladder site for replays. I can post some soon.

P.S. Donkey, did i play a match against you a couple days ago? It was the one where my partner was getting beaten by your HODOR tactics and being sort of a jerk :? . Unfortunately i don't remember any more than that because i had to go somewhere and let my brother finish the match.
Paradise- you touched onto some very important and interesting observations. Oh, and yes, we did play together. I don't use HODOR much these days, so it was probably an outlaw-heavy recruit. As I stated earlier, on most maps I use outlaws to capture and occupy crucial territory- villages and good terrain, etc. I then usually follow that up with a few guardsmen, fighters, and perhaps an ulf. Just depends on who I'm up against.

Anyways... I want to point out a few things here. If you didn't already realize it, you have to have SOME philosophy of how you play. Some people prefer defense. Some people prefer being really aggressive. And there are strategies that are in-between. Each philosophy has its strenghts and weakness. You have to know what you're giving up, in order to get something else.

The strategy of blitzkrieg is multi-faceted. It is not composed of village stealing. It is not composed of leader rushing. There are many, many ways to do blitzkrieg. You have to be able to shift gears and create new objectives as the game progresses. I once played in a ladder game (Hornshark) against a guy named zako. I moved several footpads up to the west. One footpad that I had, I sent as far into zako's backfield as I could... this was partially to steal villages and make him relocate units... basically, a distraction unit. Zako, paying no attention to the footpad, brought his leader down and engaged my one of my troops with his leader. After thinking for a minute, I realized that I could use that footpad to help encircle the enemy leader and literally club him to death with about 4 to 5 footpads. Well, the plan succeeded. I believe the game was over on turn 5... one of my fastest victories ever. But basically, you have to be able to shift gears, depending on what the opponent is giving you. The thing I like about fast units is that they tend to open up more options for you. Instead of just being able to attack the guy in front of you, now you can steal a village that's outside the enemy's range. Or maybe you can take out that slow wounded guy that's trying to run off. Or maybe you want to block the leader's keep. Whatever. Speed opens up a lot more options to you. And the more options I have, the better I tend to play. It's also more difficult for the opponent to anticipate your next move.

Anyways... there's my dissertation... glad this thread is continuing to generate *some* interest.
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Re: Blitzkrieg! (the value of speed in Wesnoth)

Post by Charlotte » July 22nd, 2009, 6:22 am

ParadiseCity wrote:...Personally i don't like the overreliance on your opponent's choices...
"It is a foolish general that bets on his opponents incompetence, not necessarily an unsuccessful one."
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